Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
as an independent filmmaker.

I want to know, is there,
is there hope for me?

Like what trends are you seeing that
will make me want to continue to

make these, million dollar movies

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
All right, Garrett.

Hey man, how's it going?

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Hey, good to see you, Darren.

I'm, I'm doing well.

How are you

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: I'm
great because we have a guest today.

I'm so excited.

Um, I met John Fitzgerald
on LinkedIn of all places.

You're probably surprised
to hear me say that, right?

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: there?

And you've, you've become an
ambassador for LinkedIn and

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: I have,

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: it.

And

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: I have,

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
podcast is better for it,

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: I

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: get a

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
you're getting an affiliate split.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: I know
every time I mentioned it, I should

get a share, another share of LinkedIn.

Um, but John, welcome to the show.

You're on truly independent.

Hey.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Happy to be here.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
The crowd goes wild.

Uh, let me give you, uh, give the
listeners a little bit of context here.

So John, you are a producer, you're
an author, you're a co founder

of the Slamdance Film Festival.

You wear a lot of hats.

You've done development and
acquisitions, and you've worked at

studios with studios for studios.

I mean, it seems like with your
30 year career in the industry,

you've kind of seen it all.

And over the last 10 years, you've done
a lot of writing and a lot of curating,

helping people figure out what to watch.

And so we're just so excited to
have you on because we want to talk

about basically all those things.

Does that sound okay?

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Sounds great.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
how much time do you have, John?

We'll be here for a couple of hours.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Yeah.

I was thinking this might
be a four hour podcast.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
You know, someday we'll do that.

We'll do the Tim Ferriss, like three
and a half hours and, and unedited.

And we'll do it when
you run for president.

How about that?

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Well, you know, I, I've done this enough

to know how to, how to give you sound
bites and we'll, we'll, we'll be able

to nail this in less than an hour.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Oh, well,

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: I mean,

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: through
your bio and, uh, hearing Darren about

you, I, I, I became an instant fan, um,
having grown up in park city and watched

The, uh, Slamdance Film Festival grow
and just, just get to be the, what it

is, uh, has been very, very exciting
for me just as an independent filmmaker.

And so to talk with you, uh, even about
that is, uh, I'm looking forward to that.

This will be a red letter
date in my experience.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Awesome.

I appreciate that.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
yeah, I wonder if we start there

because that's, that's, that's a
thing to not gloss over at all.

Like you started a very well known,
very well respected festival.

I mean, Garrett and I
were there last year.

We went and saw a panel with Ted
Hope and loved it and loved the

community there and the atmosphere.

And so maybe talk us through that
and with the bigger picture idea of,

you know, this is a podcast to help.

Demystify the indie film journey
for independent filmmakers.

And so maybe what are some of the
lessons learned, um, from starting a

festival and being so involved with
the festival for a long period of time?

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Sure.

Yeah.

I guess it's good timing since,
since they, you know, are coming

up here after their move to LA.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, the short
version of the story is, you know, like

the other co founders, I started as a
filmmaker and we didn't get into Sundance.

So we decided to basically find a
way to go up and show our own film.

So Slamdance was, was born and, and,
um, the office was in my kitchen.

And so I got all the calls after the
festival saying, are you guys coming back?

And so, you know, we decided to,
to, you know, Put at least for

myself, put my filmmaking career
on hold and, and come back.

And thankfully, Peter Baxter, who
was one of the producers of one of

the first year's films, came on board
as a creative director and, and we

just, you know, kept things moving.

And if you'd asked me then, if we'd be
still doing this over 30 years later,

I probably would have said no, but,
uh, thanks to Peter and the, and the

team, they, they, Kept the ball rolling.

And I think, you know, what we learned,
I mean, there's obviously, there's

been a lot of great films that have
come through there and filmmakers like,

you know, Chris Nolan and the Russo
brothers, and it's a pretty long list,

but, but at its core, it's really just
about supporting first time filmmakers

and giving them an opportunity to be
discovered, uh, at the end of the day.

And so.

If you can, if you can show more
films, I mean, just like the directors

Fortnite did in Cannes, right?

It's like, why not have another
section taking place up there?

And of course, eventually,
it was time to move on.

But, um, it was an amazing opportunity
for me, and, and, and it taught

me how to run film festivals.

And it taught me the idea of
discovery and how to bring these

films to venues all around the world.

You know, I did festivals in Abu Dhabi
and I've supported them in Florida

and, you know, all over really.

And I think what, what, what's rewarding
for me is in addition to the discovery

for these independent filmmakers, it's
bringing these movies to audiences.

Cause a lot of times these films
that play festivals aren't going

to find a theatrical release.

People aren't going to have a
chance to see these on the big

screen or talk to filmmakers.

And.

I'm a big fan of the experience, you
know, and I'm, I'm sure that's something

we'll talk a little bit about today.

It's like, how can we create unique
opportunities for these films to find

perhaps a non theatrical release in
a venue, but to, to get people into

the room, have conversations, maybe
have a reception, do whatever you

need to do to create a, an experience
to get people off their couch.

Right.

And so for years, you know,
running film festivals and.

And to some extent, consulting the
filmmakers and helping them map out

their journey has really become my day
job, quite honestly, is in between the

filmmaking, it's how do, how do I help
these filmmakers make the right choices?

Because as you guys know, there's,
depending on who you ask, there's

7, 500 festivals now, there were
less than a thousand Slamdance.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

Well, I want to do one of the one follow
on question there, because I think

there's been a lot of discussion over the
last week because Sundance just wrapped

two days ago, and there weren't like a
amount of acquisitions at this festival.

And that's been a talking point.

And so I'm curious as you.

Work with and consult filmmakers that
have fed or on their festival strategy.

What are some of the common things
that you're giving them as pointers?

And has that even changed in
the last year or two or three?

Because we've, you know, Hollywood
and this industry has gone through

a lot of change and a lot of
turmoil in the last couple of years.

So what are you kind of putting
in front of people as main things

they should be thinking about
with their festival strategy?

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Well, I, and that's a great question.

And I think that the single most important
thing that we always kind of talk through

first with, with, with our clients
is what are your goals for the film?

And, and, and a lot of people are
trying to sell their movie, right?

And then a lot of filmmakers,
especially short filmmakers are just

trying to elevate their careers.

They're trying to use
this as a calling card.

And I think what's really important is
you understand what you're trying to

achieve out of that festival run and if
selling your movie is the most important

to your point about the acquisitions
out of Sundance, I think it's important

to realize that most movies that
are selling on the festival circuit.

Aren't necessarily selling out of
one of those primary festivals.

There, they might get some traction,
but those deals tend to come later.

And even the films that aren't
playing Sundance or Toronto

or Telluride or what have you.

The, what we tell them is, look,
what's more important right now is that

you think about how to play credible
festivals, play festivals, where the

laurels mean something on your press kit.

Well, the first question, most
acquisitions, executives ask,

Is what festivals did you play?

So it's important to play the right
festivals, but a lot of these deals

that, that, that kind of trickle
through the year aren't necessarily

happening at a film festival.

It's the conversations and the followup
with these distributors that can

lead to acquisitions conversations.

And the deals that were happening
a few years ago, you know, like,

you know, during the boom or when
Netflix and Amazon start showing up

in Park City, you know, those deals
just really aren't happening anymore.

I mean, yeah, COTA was a monster deal,
but I mean, they're few and far between.

And so if you look at the percentages,
right, the percentages of the films

that are even accepted at a Sundance,
it's like less than half a percent now.

The more important thing is to look
at the festivals that can help you.

Achieve your goals, you know, and
then see where the acquisitions

fall into place later.

There's so many opportunities now to land
on, you know, iTunes or Amazon or Tubi

or whatever your goals are for that film.

You don't need the standard
acquisitions deal to make that

happen, but you have to understand
how, how those deals are structured.

And then just play the
festival run and play it out.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Awesome.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: okay,
so to recap, it seems like then I could,

as a filmmaker, I've made my film, you
know, maybe I don't get accepted to

Sundance, but you would help me navigate,
uh, which festivals to submit to, which

festivals to really pay attention to.

And then afterwards, how to kind of
navigate these potential deals or

no deals and what to do next, uh, to
still make sure that my film gets seen.

Thank you.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Yeah,
because again, I think it's important

to to you start with the goals, right?

Plan A is, you know, make this
film, sell it for millions of

dollars to A24 or Neon, right?

Or Fox Searchlight or Sony Classics.

But plan B might be sell it
to somebody else if I want to

move on and make my next film.

And then we'll talk
about that later, right?

What, what's the marketing cap,
how many years they want it?

That's a whole other conversation,
but what is the deal you want?

Or you know what I've spent three or
four or five years making this film.

I'm going to stay with it and
I'm going to manage my own

alternative distribution model.

I'm going to put my own
marketing dollars into it.

I might even pay an aggregator
to get it on certain platforms,

hang on to the educational.

So I control.

You don't have to be a bit more
entrepreneurial these days, right?

If, if you're interested in, in
maximizing that return and not just

handing it off to somebody else, but,
but I think it's, what I was just

saying is like, there, there are films
that, that, that played, you know,

Napa Valley and Santa Barbara and Mill
Valley and, and went on to have deals.

Sometimes it was a five figure minimum
guarantee and it was released in theaters,

but it doesn't always make sense.

Like it may have before.

to play theatrical to
still achieve your goals.

So I think it is important to kind
of talk to a filmmaker and find out,

okay, what are your goals and do
I need to play that many screens?

Is it more about generating the revenue or
is it about getting it to the right home

so that I can move on and do other things?

Yeah,

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Yeah, I love it.

Um, well, maybe that's a good transition
into, you know, there was this post

that you shared a few months ago that
I saw on LinkedIn and was just like,

man, we got to talk to this guy.

Um, you wrote a post about hybrid
distribution and it's really kind of

a, a great overview of, you know, what
do you do if you're not, if your goal

isn't theatrical or going to a festival,
like what other opportunities are there?

So I'd love to have you kind
of talk through the, kind of

your main points from that.

Thing and we could talk about it because
we're right in the middle of that now

with, you know, Faith of Angels, we've
got it on some streaming platforms,

but we still have a lot of other
opportunities to, to exploit, I think.

So it'd be fun to talk through, I think.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
well, I, I think that, you know, the sad

reality of the, of the, we call it the new
landscape, I guess, is, is that anybody

can get their movie into a theater.

You can four wall a theater if, you know,
playing it on the silver screen is your

dream, but if nobody's going to come or
your movie is going to play in a theater

three or four times a day for a week.

and compete with studio movies
that are also struggling.

It just doesn't always make sense.

For the most part, it doesn't make sense.

So there are companies like Kinema and
gather that have really kind of zeroed

in on how to, how to work with filmmakers
to play the number of theaters they want

to play the way they want to play them.

It can be.

It can be a advanced booking
where the theater is rented.

It can also be a booking that is done and
based on the number of seats you sell.

It's tip for a screening and
it happens, but you know,

they can handle the ticketing.

They can help you with how to create the
champion scenario where you get people

promoting it in these different regions.

They use a company called Artini to help
distribute, whether it's the DCPs or

the DVDs or whatever it is, community
screenings in theaters, in schools.

So these are opportunities that I
think filmmakers need to lean into.

And it doesn't work for every film, but
there's also filmmakers that are taking

their film on tour and going to different
places and having different stops.

And again, it comes down to
what your goals are and how

much time you want to spend.

But, you know, if you look at The
movies that are going to these platforms

and having alternative distribution,
you can actually make more money

that route than you're going to
make hanging out on, on Tubi or, you

know, any number of the Roku channel.

I mean, great.

Avod's doing well with some films, but.

There's thousands of titles there.

How are you going to create
attention for your title?

People always want to tell mom
and dad that I'm on iTunes.

Oh, great.

There's over a hundred
thousand titles there.

How are people going to find your movie
besides the people you direct link to?

So you have to have marketing
as, as part of your conversation.

But the other, the other thing that
if you, if you don't go with gather

or one of these other alternative
distribution place, people are

aggregating now, which means you go
to a company and you pay them a fee.

Okay.

And then they place you on, on
these channels, but again, you know,

it's a, it's a double edged sword
because on the one hand, they're

not taking your film for five or 10
or 15 years, which is great, right?

You hold on to your rights by just
getting the movie on those platforms

is not going to help you unless
you have a marketing strategy to

support it and drive eyeballs to it.

So again, it's the plan a plan B
and sometimes it's, it's the plan C.

You know, there's a ton of
opportunity now, especially in

the social impact space to go into
educational, go into schools, you know,

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

And it seems like you would design a
plan just based on the film, right?

There is no turnkey solution where you
say, do this, if you're an independent

filmmaker, here's how to do it.

and that's why

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
there is no one way

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
article you refer to any, you

know, some of those companies are
companies that that can put your

film onto screens into theaters.

We talked about cinema and gather.

Others are like, like binge.

I mean, you could pay whatever 10
grand or whatever their fees are.

And they'll get you on, on, you
know, 20, 30, 50, sometimes even 100

platforms, but you're paying for the
privilege to have them do that work.

They're essentially giving
you access to their platform.

And then they're subdistributing
to other platforms.

And so there's a value to that if
you have that kind of money to spend

and you want to kind of hand it off.

But the other cool thing is
it's a shorter term deal, right?

You're not handing it to Gravitas
for 10 years or something, right?

So, it is important to kind
of understand the term.

I made the mistake, right, 15 years ago.

I, I sold my movie to Magnolia
and they've had it for 15 years.

It was a monumental mistake
that I learned from.

So now one of the first questions
when, when I talked to a filmmaker,

it says, I just got this offer.

I say, send me the agreement.

Let me look at the terms and let's
make sure that, you know, they're not

trying to tie you up or that they're
going to have unlimited marketing spend.

Right.

Cause I

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
mean, again, there are some honest

people in this business, but.

Let's face it, the sales agents
and the distributors in these

international markets aren't always
the straightest of shooters, right?

And so they have a super
creative accounting program.

And they always find a way to just spend
a little more than it, than it makes.

It seems like to me anyway.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: So
what are things in, in, uh, an agreement

again, Darren, Darren mentioned,
we've just released Faith of Angels.

We're now doing streaming deals.

We've got some international
deals in place.

What are some things that we should
be looking for or other independent

film makers should be looking for
in those agreements to say, Hey,

here's a red flag or no, this is
a, this is a good opportunity.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Well, I think that the three things

that come to mind are term, you know,
you work with one of these agents, let

them, let them, let them do what they
can for a year or two, I think indie

rights, Linda Nelson and Michael, those
guys are great and, and they've got

a terrific reputation with filmmakers
and they don't tie you up for 10 years.

I don't know what it is, two, three,
it's a pretty short term thing.

So think about the term.

If you can help it.

I mean, look, if Netflix or HBO or
Apple or one of these big companies

wants to throw down real money
and take it for a longer period.

And you're okay with
that, then that's fine.

But, but the problem is a lot of
these smaller, like what I call bottom

feeders, they're like, there's, there's.

Dozens of them out there.

They're trying to take the
film for as long as they can.

And so the term is first.

The second thing is again, look at the
marketing spend, make sure there's a cap.

If they're going to release it in some
theaters, nobody's going to come up.

They don't spend a little bit of
money, five or 10 grand a market

maybe, but they need to spend
something to get cheeks and seats.

You don't want to have unlimited
because again, they'll get creative with

the accounting, some of these folks.

And then the third thing is just make
sure that, that there's tracking that

you can understand what's going on.

Some of these folks will take, tie
your film up, but they're, they

don't have a strong reporting.

You want to know what's
going on at all times.

You know, don't don't have to call them.

I mean, even Magnolia.

I mean, with all due respect.

I mean, they have one of my films,
but sometimes I have to follow up

with them to get to get my quarterly
report and it comes way late.

So I think that's important to
understand the reporting structure.

And then the last thing is just
understand the deliverables.

Because this has changed a
lot over the years, right?

It used to be like, how are
you going to blow up my movie?

And what's, you know, what are the errors
and omissions and what are chain of title?

There's a lot of things in that
deliverables bucket that filmmakers

don't really understand and they get.

So excited that there's an offer
on the table, but then they, they

realized that, Oh my God, there's
a ton of work I have to do.

And it's going to cost me a lot of
money that I didn't even budget for.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah,

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
I understand the, the deliverable.

So those are, you know, a
few things to think about.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
well, shout out

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
that's amazing.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
last week's episode, uh, if you

haven't heard the deliverables
episode listener, please go back and

listen to that because that we did,

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Mm

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
things that you have to be aware

of and, you know, and everything.

Yeah, all of those.

That's, that's the phase
we're in right now.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
That was awesome.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
won't even work with, you know,

if they pass over the deliverables
list and you say, what's this?

That's kind of a sign and say,
okay, well, maybe not ready.

You know, we

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
equal agreement there.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
What's interesting about what you're

talking about here is I've seen this
probably half a dozen times in the last

six months where there's a producer
or an executive producer who has

come out online and said, that's it.

I'm never doing typical
distribution again.

I'm just going to self distribute all
my movies because they find like what

you're talking about here with these
different platforms that like, you

can literally just do it yourself.

And the platforms exist, they cost
less than the fees you would pay to

a sales agent or a, an aggregator.

And they're just saying, well, if,
if they can do it, I can do it.

And I've got the money already.

Why give it to them?

Why not just put it into marketing?

And then all of a sudden they've got
25 or 50 grand to market their movie.

And they see really, really
good results doing it this way.

And I think if you.

Can, if you pair that with a theatrical
thing, that's a great way to get

awareness for your movie because it's
in theaters and people are naturally

talking about what's in theaters each
week and seeing what's in theaters.

I mean, when we had Faith of Angels in,
I'd pull the audience just very informally

on the way in or the way out and say,
Hey, how'd you hear about the movie?

half the people there would
say, well, it was on the app.

Like I pulled it up and there it was.

And it looked like a
good faith based movie.

So we bought tickets because
they see a movie every week and

they only kind of like the PG, PG
13, you know, uplifting movies.

And that's what they see.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: hmm.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
okay, cool.

Like that makes sense.

And then to pair that with, you
know, kind of, we self distributed

these two movies essentially in

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Mm hmm.

That's great.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
the post theatrical is really

enticing to say, Look, we, who's,
who's going to have a better

interest for the movie than Garrett?

You know, like there's no one else.

So why not have him continue running the
play and, and coming up with the strategy

and, and continually going and going.

So to hear that there's other options
available is always exciting to me.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Yeah, well, I, I mean, it's, as

you said earlier, you know, just
looking into these new pipelines

and alternative distribution, I
think is really where it's at.

It's just, again, it's a question of
how much time you have, how much money

you have, but I think anytime you can.

Hang on to your rights as long as
you can and get creative with it.

And there are other people besides me.

I know Peter Broderick is certainly an
amazing champion for independent film.

Keith Otchwad's doing great things.

So it's just, it's just a question
of finding the right person.

You know, I, I used to work with
Jeff Dowd many years ago, and I

remember him saying to me, you know,
Michael Jordan didn't, you know, win

all those championships by himself.

He had a team, you know, and I
think sometimes people tend to think

that they need to do everything.

And what I've learned is there are
people that have great skillsets.

So find the right people that
can help you reach those goals.

And whether it's one person or two
people and, you know, don't hire, don't

hire your editor to do your trailer.

You know, don't let your best friend
who's a graphic designer do your poster.

Like, there are people that are
trained professionals to make

trailers, and they're usually better
than your standard editors because

they have a marketing sense, right?

And you can inexpensively hire a
designer at Fiverr for 20, 30, 40 who's

a designer to make your poster rather
than trying to just grab a good still

and throwing a title treatment on it.

So I think it's good to have
a team, but it's also good

to, you know, have different,
different layers of goals, right?

Because again, some people
have investors to pay back.

So they have to think about
how much money can I make?

And if I'm going to spend 000 on
this thing, then I need to certainly

make sure that it's going to give me
exponential growth on the back end,

which you're not going to get if you
go with one of those bottom feeders,

you'll probably never see a dime.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: And
even if they give you Superman, they're

probably never going to give you any more.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

A quick question.

Is there a, a point in your
spend on a movie where this

strategy kind of falls apart?

Like if you were to spend a million
on a movie or four or five million

dollar on a movie, does this strategy
still apply where you can recoup and

make your money back using this kind
of hybrid distribution strategy?

Or is it really exclusively for, you
know, the self financed sub hundred

thousand dollar budget movies?

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
I think it really depends on

what those numbers look like.

I mean, if you look at Bob Birney and
some of the work he's done over the years

with some of his titles, you know, some
of these huge movies that people don't

even realize we're, we're kind of, in a
way, alternative distribution, you know,

like four walling and, and self booking
and like, My big fat Greek wedding.

I mean, there's a bunch of movies that
made a ton of money, but they weren't.

Acquired by a major and booked
into X number of theaters.

They were, they were, there was a
very careful strategy that went into

some of these titles, but they did
have to spend a lot of money to do it.

But then there are other ones that
don't spend a lot of money that, that

will test the market and see how it
does and then go a little bit wider.

And so I, I think it's, it's
too complicated to say, should

I spend 3, 000 or, Or 300, 000.

Most independent filmmakers aren't in in
that category of being able to spend more

than six figures on releasing their film.

I think it's more important to look
at where is my audience going to be?

If it's a church thing, a faith
based thing, and you can play

in churches across the country.

Or if there's a whole education
spin and you can book it into high

schools or college campuses, right?

If it's something that kind of
leans into yoga, can you play in

yoga studios across the country?

You know, it's like, what is the theme?

What is the niche and how big is it?

And what does that community look like?

But more often than not, Unless you're
making a bigger movie, in which case we're

probably not having this conversation
anyway, because it's a big action

picture, an event release that a studio
can justify putting millions behind.

You hear it all the time now, right?

Should I, should I go pay
money to see that in a theater?

Should I just wait for, for streaming?

So most of the movies we're talking about,
yeah, it'd be great to see it on the

big screen with the lights off and the
great sound and all that, but the truth

is a lot of these movies, especially
docs, people are just going to wait

and see them in their own creative way.

But like with Gather and Kinema,
like some of these platforms, you

can do virtual events, you can
do Q& As and you can charge for

screenings and you can sell products.

So there's a lot of opportunity there.

You just kind of got to know what
your budget is and what your spend is.

And then that will help dictate what
the revenue projections could be.

So if you have to raise two, 5
million to pay your investors back.

Then you got to kind
of have a bigger plan.

It's not just bicycling across
the country, making, you know,

thousand here, a thousand there.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Thanks
for humoring me with that question.

Garrett, you had a couple
questions lined up, I think.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I wanted to find out, again, I'm
going over this article and I can't

recommend it enough, uh, these 10
options for hybrid, uh, distribution.

And, uh, you want to look at that it?

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Yeah.

The on the circuit sub stack, which
we can put in your show notes.

I mean, 75,

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: that.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
000 people are getting that now.

Um, but it's, you know, sub stack
has become a thing and, and this

on the circuit, it's kind of
part blog, part, part podcast.

I do top 10 lists every once in a while.

And I do have a podcast, but I think.

You know, the idea is to just try and give
resources to filmmakers as much as we can.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

Okay.

So, so there's two different kinds
of questions and we can decide

which way we want to do this
one as an independent filmmaker.

I want to know, is there,
is there hope for me?

Like what trends are you seeing that
will make me want to continue to

do this because to continue to make
these, uh, you know, million dollar

movies and then, See the market change.

So, so quickly, honestly, it's hard to
put together a business plan that I can

take to an investor and say, you know,
here's a million dollars, and then we're

going to spend 500, 000 to market it.

And here's how we recoup.

Because that all changes so quickly.

So I'd love to get your take on what
trends you're seeing that can still

instill some, some, you know, sliver of
hope in, in the independent film market.

And then also, and maybe this is the
same segue into, um, film, you know,

film investors, you, you've written
a book or you write up a lot about,

um, being a tool for engagement of
change or, uh, influencing social,

um, you know, relevant issues.

And some investors are drawn to that
more than perhaps the recoupability or,

you know, it makes it more worth it.

So those

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
I still want to discuss.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: yeah.

I mean, those are both great ideas.

I'll tackle the first one, um,
first and then and then I'll kind of

shift into the social impact piece.

But but I think, you know, if you
were to decide, for example, where

to put your energy around Making an
independent film today and and how to

pull it off I think there's kind of in
my opinion in the independent space.

There's basically two buckets The
first is what is the what is the

cheapest I can make this film for?

There are so many tools now.

It's mind boggling in terms
of the cameras and the post

production and the green screen.

I mean, it's crazy.

I mean, people are making movies.

Noam Kroll has some great articles.

You should recommend him to your readers.

I mean, 5, 000, 10, 000, whatever.

I mean, you can make
movies for next to nothing.

Um, so, so I do think Pricing it as low
as you possibly can writing a script

like don't try and write a big sci
fi, sci fi with tons of big effects

and tons of locations if you want
to make it for less than 100 grand.

So think about as an independent
filmmaker, if you're trying to just kind

of work on your craft and, and, and keep
working and try and elevate your career

and be noticed, come up with innovative
stories and, and make it for a price.

And so you can do it for less than a
hundred grand and it's not that hard

to raise a hundred grand these days.

With crowdfunding, getting creative
with sales, whether it's, you know,

writing a book, whether it's having
an auction, having fundraisers,

cobble together as many creative
ideas as you can to raise some funds.

And then you can probably
make your money back.

And you can probably make a sale.

And and so there's that kind of
innovative, low, low budget camp, right?

Where you're probably going
to make your money back.

Then there's the kind of the next
version, which is, I think, the one that

is more apt to to secure distribution
on the international sales side, where

you might spend a million dollars.

You might have to go and have a LLC
created and sell shares in the movie.

You know, there's equity crowdfunding
now, which you can raise, you know,

substantial funds because people,
instead of just getting a free

poster, they get a piece of the movie.

So there's this whole equity
crowdfunding thing that's working.

Then, to make that, to make that
kind of an investment, more often

than not, you're going to have to
have some cast that's recognizable.

Is it a, is it a film that will travel?

Is it a film that will do well overseas?

Or is it a local thing?

But, those are the two bigger buckets,
but I, I do think, you know, to your first

point, you know, should I be excited?

Should I be enthusiastic?

Are there opportunities?

I think there's huge opportunities.

I just think you have to have the
right team to help to execute something

really, really well, so it stands out.

I mean, Sundance had what,
17, 000 plus submissions?

And I'm not saying it's, you
should do everything for Sundance.

I'm saying as a, as a kind of a
symbol of how many movies are getting

made now, how do you stand out?

Well, find a creative way to
tell that story for as little as

possible, and you'll stand out.

Hire the right people to help
you get on people's radar, right?

You need to be seen.

Don't get lost.

And then you'll make some money back.

The million dollar, two million,
three million, I think that's

a tougher play, in my opinion.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
People are doing it.

On the social impact side, this is kind of
where I was leaning into with Filmmaking

for Change, the book I wrote, and this
handful of documentaries I've made.

There's always some
social relevance to them.

Sometimes they're more
educational than not.

But But at the end of the day, I feel
like we owe ourselves the opportunity

to, if we're going to use this massive
tool for communication, try to leverage

the power of film to create change.

That's really what it's about.

And, and, and in my opinion,
there's actually more opportunities

for revenue and, and creating.

Screening and community screenings,
creating curriculum, toolkits, discussion

guides, whether you want to talk
about food, ink, forks over knives,

or you want to kind of lean into the,
you know, the climate change that

there's so many different categories.

And you can see like where the audiences
are in these categories and these movies

can, can make money through the schools
and through the education, whether

it's your licensing and yourself, or
you're going through Canopy or one of

the distributors that's doing that.

There's a handful of those out there.

So I think that's a great
opportunity if you have a movie

that's not a genre picture, right?

Um, that has something to say and
that can actually move the needle in

whatever category you're looking at.

I think that's a great, a
great sandbox to play in.

Let's just put it that way.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Yeah, for sure.

And I love that.

And I think that that's one of the things
that's enabled us to make these faith

based films is, um, you know, we lean into
mission driven that are willing to, um,

take that risk and enjoy that experience.

and, you know, in their mind, uh, help
in getting that, their message out to

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952: Yeah,
and there's, to be honest, there's, I

mean, it may seem obvious, but there are
hundreds of usually in the bigger kind

of macro categories of social impact
that have these nonprofits and NGOs

and organizations that have memberships
and want to get the word out and want

content to get to these people, right?

So you're, you're educating, but
you're also preaching to the choir if

there's a built in audience for them.

So there is a world where, you
know, you have a built in community.

For these types of films.

And I just think, you know, you can also
look to sponsorship opportunities, right?

There are organizations now that have
these divisions that are looking to

support sustainability, for example.

Sometimes you can get sponsors and
that's a great way to raise some funds.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: Yeah.

Amazing.

Okay.

Well, you've restored hope.

So thank you.

I'll keep going.

We'll, we'll, we'll

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Good.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
week, Darren.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: Good.

Good man.

I don't want to be worried
about your future career.

And every time we hop on a podcast,

um, but john, I think you've highlighted
something that it's just highlighting this

shift that's occurred in the last couple
of years of filmmakers really just need

to take responsibility for everything.

It's kind of gone are the days of I'm
just going to be I'm just gonna make

the movie and then it's someone else's
job to make it profitable, right?

We have to be thinking about
that from the very get go.

What's the outcome?

How are we gonna distribute this?

How are we gonna make the money back?

Is it something we're looking
to make money back or is

this a not a vanity project?

But something where we're not
concerned about that in the same way.

So

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
I mean, the question is

like, are you making this?

Because there's some artistic vision that
you just need to bring to the world, but

you don't care about the money and you
manage, you manage to scrape together

enough to do it, and there's probably
a streaming channel out there somewhere

that that, that will support your vision.

But if you're looking to make money.

Then you need to know who the audience
is and how big is that audience.

You can't just say, I'm going to make
a broad comedy with no talent and think

that it's going to reach people, right?

You got to think about
the audience first now.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Yeah, it's so true.

And realizing that there's a big
difference between an audience that

pays 10 to see a movie in theaters
and an audience that watches you

for free by flicking their thumb
on their phone screen every day.

And sometimes those don't translate.

Um, well, amazing.

I think you've been very
generous with your time.

I've got some notes that I'm taking.

I definitely want to recommend that
everybody check out the writing that

you're doing because it's super important.

I've been trying to just collect a lot
of people who are writing about film and

independent film, especially because.

These are the things we want
other filmmakers to know about.

It's like, yes, there's still opportunity.

Yes, there's lots of ways that you can get
this outcome, but you might just need to

think about it in a non traditional sense.

Like the way that things used to be
done by making a movie, taking it to a

festival and selling it, you know, it's,
it's not as, uh, as clear bath anymore.

And so we need to be
thinking outside that box.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
Yeah, for sure.

And, and, and to your point, I think you
need to, you know, back to one, right?

It's like, okay, if I'm, if I'm
going to leverage the opportunity

to play festivals, to expand my.

my network, elevate my career, potentially
sell my movie, or at least generate

some credibility with these laurels.

How do I do that the right way?

And I think it really is important to
lean into the festival circuit to, to

kind of jumpstart all of those pieces.

But then it's understanding that
there are plenty of opportunities

to maximize your distribution.

Regardless of how much money you
might make, there's a, there's a path.

You just have to find the right path.

Of

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Yeah, I like that shift and thinking

of it more as a starting line
than a finish line for your film.

That's cool.

Garrett, any other last
questions before we let John go?

This has been awesome.

I've been

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952: John,
you've been wonderful to talk with.

Thank you very much for
spending some time with us.

Uh, yeah, I'm thrilled with,
uh, what, what you've shared.

Thank you.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
course.

Of course.

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm here and I'm, I'm,
I love what you guys are doing and just

spreading the, spreading the news and
sharing the information with independent

filmmakers is what it's all about.

Um, I do have a website that's
got a lot of resources on it.

Causepictures.

com and yeah, the on the
circuit sub stack, you know, I

urge people to check that out.

I'm, I'm.

Always available to talk to filmmakers.

I think it's, you know, you gotta,
you gotta go where the experience

is to try and get that leg up.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952: amazing.

That was my last question is
where can people find you?

So, and obviously find them on
LinkedIn because you never know.

They don't know where, how
you can connect with people.

Um, John, thank you.

This has been amazing.

I'm looking forward to chatting
with you again in the future.

I'm sure there's going to be
opportunities to your brain and to share

other things that we're working on.

And so thanks for being generous
with your time today and coming on.

jon-fitzgerald_1_02-04-2025_090952:
I've enjoyed it.

You guys are great.

Keep up the good work and,
uh, yeah, we'll keep in touch.

garrett-batty_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Thank you, sir.

daren-smith_1_02-04-2025_100952:
Thanks, John.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
Oh man, I like that guy.

John's cool.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: What
a great, yeah, what a great resource.

I mean that there's 30, 30
plus years experience in

independent film right there.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah.

And, uh, I mean, part of it was self
serving because, you know, I know

this guy does a lot of consulting
for filmmakers and you look at the

films that he's helped out on, you're
like, Oh, he's, he's a person the

industry goes to for strategy stuff.

So that's one of the great things
about having a podcast is you can

just invite consultants on and ask
them all the questions and, you know,

just cost you an hour of your time.

But yeah, he is great.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
I would put this out there too,

Darren, for anybody that's listening.

It doesn't take a podcast to be able
to make that call, you know, and say,

Hey, I'm an independent filmmaker.

I'd love to chat with you for a
little bit about what you're doing.

I mean, as a consultant,
he's going to take that call.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
Yeah, very, very true.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: yeah.

Yeah.

But great, great, great guests.

Thank you very much for inviting him,

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Oh yeah.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
wanted to find out, I wanted

to follow up with you.

Uh, we are, we've had your
pitch meeting, summit.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah.

Pitched on it.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
and I wanted to find out what your,

what your takeaway was, how to

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah.

Man, what a night like that, that
exceeded my expectations for sure.

We had about 55, 60 people circle through.

And when I counted at like the peak
of the night, there was 55 people

there, but I know there were.

A handful that came and went that
I didn't even get to say hi to.

It was funny.

Cause he mentioned Kinema and Christie,
who's the CEO of Kinema was at the

event, but she left before I got
a chance to say hi, which was sad.

Um, but yeah, we had some amazing
people, some industry people, some

investors, some tech people, some
filmmakers, all in the same room.

And I, I said this earlier in the
conversation with John, but like

the takeaway for me was that was the
starting line, not the finish line.

Right.

Every, it wasn't that everything
was building up and then I was going

to raise 10 million in one night.

Um, I definitely have had people from that
night come into the fund as investors.

And so that part worked and we've
raised some money since the event.

It's been about a week at this point.

And really it's, um, you know, I
wrote a post about this, uh, last

week where the Someone told me once
the fortune is in the follow up.

And I like that phrase because you really
have to think of the mindset of this is

the starting point, not the finish line.

And now I've got 150 people that's
expressed interest in attending the event.

About a third of them or so came.

And so that's a huge opportunity.

Now I've got a hit list, so
to speak of 150 people that

I can be following up with.

And that's literally what I'm doing
every day now is two, three hours every

day of texting and emailing and calling
and hopping on meetings and, and.

Making sure that I've answered
people's questions and I, I'm very

much driving to a yes or a no, like, I
don't want to just let people hang out

thinking about it for the next year.

I want to know right
now, how are you feeling?

Are you in or out?

Do you want to do this now?

If not, I'm happy to come to
you later, but like I'm raising

now, this is the time to do it.

And so I think people appreciate
that kind of boldness or frankness

of, no, this is the moment.

Are you in or out?

And a lot of people are like, Oh, I
didn't realize it was like right now.

It's like, yeah, it's right now.

Like, let's go.

And they go, Oh, okay, well, let me, let
me think about it and call me in a day.

And it's like, okay, great.

So a lot of the, uh, the work is after
the event, not leading up to or during.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
From an outside perspective or

from somebody who stood, you know,
watched this event take place.

takeaway was, uh, you know, just.

100 percent impressed with
what you put together.

The group that you invited, both the tech
side and investor side and filmmaker side.

Um, I think that that was a very,

Encouraging group and honestly restored.

Not that I've lost hope or faith in
independent film, but it was, again, I see

it as evidence that there is an interest.

There is always going to be this interest
independent film and using it as an

investment or a resource or a way to tell
stories or a way to influence culture.

But there was an awareness to be
able to get 55 people to show up.

For a meeting, or a summit
was, is no small feat.

And it was really a neat, it was
neat to be able to see that and the

excitement and the buzz around it.

Um, and yeah, I applaud you and I'm
thrilled because that is your expertise.

I think that's one of your expertise is
that networking and follow up and making

sure that nothing falls through the
cracks, nothing is left on the table.

And I'm so excited for you
to continue to do that.

done.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
Thanks, man.

Yeah, it's, it was very, very exciting.

It's a ton of work.

So as much as we tried to distill
the process last week in the episode,

it's like, you know, it's still.

It was weeks of 20 to 30 hours a week
of, you know, calling and emailing and

texting and following up and putting
it together and lining everything up.

And it's still not done.

Like I got invoices to pay and I
got people to take care of, like,

you know, it's a whole thing.

So.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: Well,
I, you, you manage it well, and I mean,

that is the skill set that you have as a
producer, and, uh, I, I'm, it'll work out.

Be fruitful for you.

Um,

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: we,
uh, it was also it took place at Sundance

kind of the tail end at Sundance.

So as far as giving a report on Sundance,
I think that was another great festival.

I had the chance to go up to
several events and even did a

screening of a film called Omaha.

Which is made by a friend
of ours, Cole Webley.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Mm hmm.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: just
an incredible, incredible, beautiful film.

Both, uh, and he'll tell you, it's both
heartbreaking and and, uh, very touching

and poignant and left a message of,
um, just having compassion for, those

that you may just see passing by you.

and it was very well done.

I also got to spend a lot of time with,
uh, a mutual friend of ours, Kirk Rose,

who was, he's with Heartstrings Media.

He came up and we went to various
pitch meetings and, talked

a lot about distribution and
coming up with the next project.

And, um, was a, it was a great week
of networking and kind of immersing

ourselves in that independent film world.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah.

There was a lot of, a lot, a lot going on.

Uh, it was not only Sunday, but then after
the first weekend was Utah Tech Week.

And so we overlapped both
of those with my event.

I think it went really well, but
it was also like, man, there were

200, over 200 events with the event.

Utah Tech Week.

And I think a lot of the people that I
invited from the tech side or the Utah

infrastructure side ended up going to
other events or decided not to come up to

Park City for that, which was a bummer.

But you know, the follow ups been great.

And so they're like, Hey, I
was really sad to miss it.

I re you know, my wife was kind enough
to record both our, um, kind of panel

discussion and my pitch to the room.

And so.

And so I've got that asset that
I've been using heavily and, you

know, my dad's passing it around and
other investors that were there are

passing it around to people that they.

Wish they had invited
or wished had attended.

So it's, it's, it's continually working.

It's, it's making the
rounds now, which is fun.

So yeah, we'll see how it plays out.

It's a lot of, uh, you know, keep going.

And the finish line is
somewhere in the future.

I don't know when or where, but
it's out there and I'll get there.

I just don't know when, and that's fine.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
you have created a, an awareness.

And, and broaden that again,
it's about building your audience

and you are doing just that

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
are you thinking?

Few

minutes.

Let's do it.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
box office.

And, uh, it looks like dog man and
companion both came out this weekend.

Uh, as far as the studio releases,
the big wide releases, um,

independently, what are we at?

And that top 10 looks like the independent
film that came out on 200 screens is of

the Gods 2, Demon Force from WellGo USA.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: I
don't know anything about this one.

And then you've got Valiant One,
which is, uh, came out on 1200

screens from Briarcliff Entertainment.

Um, yeah, I don't know.

I haven't seen anything, uh, tensions
between North and South Korea.

So yeah, but you've got two in there.

That's it's another one of these, you
know, the, the number 10 slot was a 1.

6 million weekend, uh, because the dog
man, even though it crossed 36 million

for the weekend, still fairly low.

And the weekend as a whole fairly low,
it was like 72 million this weekend.

And so.

It's funny to watch the, uh,
Mufasa and Sonic the Hedgehog

continue to battle it out.

They're at 229.

6 million and 230.

5 million.

Um, so, and they, it seems like
now, I mean, there's still two of

the biggest movies in theaters.

Sonic's still playing on 2600.

Mufasa's playing on 3100 screens.

I mean, these are still big releases
and they're in their seventh weeks.

Like, that's a lot of screens.

It just shows that not really any other
big movies have come out since Christmas.

Um,

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
too, Moana 2 is 10 weeks out

and it's just behind Sonic.

I mean, that's amazing that
Moana 2 is still performing.

John mentioned the Oscar bump,
the Academy Awards season,

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah,

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: season
bump, um, which was, is neat to see.

I mean, you have these.

Nominations that have been announced, uh,
Golden Globes have taken place, different

award shows, the Gotham, the Critics,
and the um, SAG, and and all those are

taking place now in the next several
weeks and we're seeing these films like

the brutalist and a complete unknown.

wicked even,

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: yeah.

Well, then you go down into
your 20, 25th through 30th.

You've got Flo and Anora and
The Substance and Conclave.

Like, I've been trying
to pick through these.

Um, I watched Substance
and Conclave on streaming.

Uh, but Flo, I went yesterday with
my now 14 year old for his birthday

and we watched Flo in theaters.

We had to drive about 40 minutes
to get there, but that's okay.

Like, it was awesome.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: it?

Is it up at the Broadway?

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: No,
we saw it at the Cinemark in West

Valley City or Jordan, Jordan Landing
or wherever it was, Jordan Landing.

And, uh, it was great.

It's such a good movie.

And man, I was like, that was awesome.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
Really well done.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: We
watched it on a screener and, um, I put

it on as, you know, I had 15 minutes.

I'm like, Oh, let's put this show on.

Let's kind of check it out.

See if it catches me.

My 18 year old daughter was at home and
we sat and watched the entire thing.

It was so beautiful.

Well done.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
Really well done.

So I love that season too.

Like it's always, um, I always just like
looking at what are the nominees for best

picture and let me watch those movies.

Like it feels like something we
should be doing as producers.

Like if you're not watching the
best movies that were produced

last year, what are you doing?

Like, It's kind of my take

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719:
It's definitely, uh, an important part

of the research and study and say,
Hey, what are audiences responding to?

And is that a space
that I want to play in?

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: I'll
have to get the, uh, I'll have to join

the PGA this year finally, so that I
can get the screener app because that

seems like a way easier way to do
it than waiting for them to hit all

the different streaming platforms.

But yeah, I've, I've still got two or
three that I need to see, but yeah,

it's a, it was a good year for movies.

Um, despite, you know, a lower, barely
lower, uh, box office last year.

I feel like 2023 and
2024 were essentially.

The same amount of tickets sold, the
same amount of movies that came out,

same number of box office, essentially.

Um, and it's just been some
great movies coming out.

And I, I'm got some that I'm
looking forward to this year.

I don't think movies are going anywhere,
so we're going to keep making them.

We're going to keep seeing them.

We're going to keep talking about them.

It'll be a fun time.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: Thanks
to all of our listeners and commenters.

We've got some great comments.

Somebody sent a treatment.

They actually posted their treatment
right in the YouTube comments.

Um, but, uh, sure.

Appreciate you guys both sharing and
listening and, and, uh, talking podcast.

So keep it up.

And we'll continue to
bring episodes to you.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719: Yeah,
well, and on today's episode, we probably

should announce we're going to be doing
a live taping of Truly Independent

at the 2025 Zions Indie Film Fest.

You can come and hang out with
us Friday the 28th at 8 45 a.

m.

and We're going to be in show house too.

And I'm really looking forward to
doing this with the live audience.

I think we're going to have a
cool conversation as always,

but being able to take some live
questions is going to be super fun.

So if you're in Utah or if you're near
Utah and you want to come into town,

it's a great festival that you should
consider the Zion's film festival.

I mean, there were 10, 000
people that attended last year.

It's not a small festival anymore.

Um, and it's at the Sarah in Orem, Utah,
and we will be there throughout the week.

I'm sure looking, you know, watching
movies and participating in panels and

all those things that we tend to do, but
Friday morning, February 28th, come live.

Uh, we're going to record
an episode of the podcast.

I'm super looking forward to that.

garrett-batty_2_02-04-2025_105719: Okay.

That's a good, good plug.

Good way to end it.

We'll get this episode out in
time so that they can act on that.

Thank you very much, Darren.

Congrats on your event and I look
forward to chatting with you next week.

daren-smith_2_02-04-2025_105719:
Thanks, man.

See ya.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

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And we'll see you next week.

Our intro and outro music is
election time by Kjartan Abel.