Post Theatrical and Digital Sales with Kirk Roos | Episode 022
Where are you at with your mindset? Are you in a needy place of, like, I have to find a producer. I have to find the money. I have to do anything to get this project going because that's a really not great place to operate from. If you're showing up every day and going, I desperately need a producer.
Daren:I desperately need financing. That's gonna that's gonna come across in the way you message people, in the way you talk to people, in the way you post. This is truly independent, a show that demystifies the indie film journey by documenting the process of releasing independent films in theaters. Each week, Garrett Batty and I, Darren Smith, will update you on our journey, bringing guests to share their insights into the process and answer your questions. Today on the podcast, we chat with our friend, Kirk Ruse, from Heartstrings Media.
Daren:We talk about how we met, how we're working together now, and how you can apply the same ideas in your own business, your own projects in in moving them forward. Today on Truly Independent, episode 22. Alright. Welcome, everybody. So excited today.
Daren:We have Garrett with us. Hi, Garrett. How's it going?
Garrett:Darren, how are you? Of course, I'm here. This is our podcast.
Daren:And we're joined by our friend, Kirk Roos. Oh my gosh, Kirk. Hi. Thanks for joining us.
Kirk:Is it a live podcast?
Daren:Oh, we're we're live.
Garrett:You're you're on. Whatever you say is now going to be held against you. Good.
Kirk:Don't edit a single thing we say.
Daren:Deal. I never do anyway. That's how
Kirk:you do that's how you
Daren:do a weekly podcast when you're also releasing movies is you don't edit. You just release the thing. So let me give, the audience a quick bio here of Kirk. Kirk, originally from North Dakota, has been working in Hollyweird for 25 years as an actor, writer, producer. He's the founder of Northern Lights Films, Badlands Features, and Heartstrings Media, where he serves as president and head of development.
Daren:So, Kirk, we're excited to talk to you today because we know you through heartstrings, and I want to just briefly I'm gonna try to keep this as short as possible. I know I get wordy on the podcast, but, like, the the way that you and I met, I think, is very interesting for the audience. And then we can hear your thoughts on this because I know you have thoughts on this as well. So I was you know, months ago, we were looking for investors for the P and A of Faith of Angels. I've been raising money for other projects.
Daren:So, like, I'm constantly thinking about where investors live, and I was like, man, I wonder if they're on LinkedIn. Because I would go and search LinkedIn for angel investor, and it'd come up with 15,000 results. I'm like, well, here they are. Like, how do I reach these people? So I started DMing.
Daren:Hey. Would you are you interested in film? Have you ever thought about film as an investment? And just nothing came of that. It was a constant struggle every day of, like, getting up and trying to spend an hour on LinkedIn, and then I realized, well, there's people that are actually posting about and commenting on and talking about film every day on the platform.
Daren:So I started just following a lot of people and then your name came up. I kept seeing you liking posts and commenting on posts and so I would like your comments and then comment on your comments, and we kind of had this back and forth for maybe a week or 2. I don't know how much of this you're aware of, but, like, I remember. Strategy. And then after, like, 2 weeks of that, then I felt like, okay.
Daren:Now I can do a DM and and send Kirk a message and say, hey. Seems like we're following a lot of the same people. I'd love to have a chat just like a get to know you type thing. And then we did. We had, like, a 30 minute getting to know you Zoom call, and then fast forward a few months, and you guys are coming in with some money for the P and A of Faith of Angels.
Daren:You're helping with the digital release of the film, and it like, look at what happens from LinkedIn. Like, that's pretty crazy. Right?
Kirk:Yeah. I I wasn't on LinkedIn for many years. I mean, I was on there. I think I just had an account, but I didn't do much on there. Probably for some of the reasons you said, what it just there's maybe it's oversaturated with lots of people talking about their own stuff.
Kirk:I think one thing that's great about sales, distribution, any kind of business, any kind of supply and demand is listening to your buyer. So so what I try to do, whether it was LinkedIn or some other thing, go to a festival or a convention or get to know people, it's a lot of asking them what can we do for you. And on Faye on I almost said Facebook. On LinkedIn, I hear a lot about what people want them to do want us to do for them. But if you come in with an attitude of what can I do for you, you tend to get further in your relationships?
Garrett:Yeah. So who had so I'm curious who had that attitude between you guys. Was it what you know? Hey. Look at what we can do for you.
Garrett:We're gonna show you our movie, and you can Yeah. And we can help you invest.
Daren:I I don't know. I feel like I probably led that conversation because I was actively seeking stuff. But I think when you have things that are happening and that are valuable in the marketplace, it attracts and pulls in the people who also want to be a part of that. So you guys are seeking for these type of investments. We had one that was ready right now.
Daren:Mhmm. And that that's kinda how it came together.
Kirk:Yeah. We Yeah. I'm not gonna name names, but there's been a couple other projects that are currently out there on the market that we almost got. And, you know, like you guys, I'm a filmmaker, writer, actor, started in all sorts of creative things. And when we launched Heartstrings, the first couple partners, Brad and Roger and Brian, they all also had creative backgrounds.
Kirk:My partner, Roger, has directed 2 films for Pure Flix. So he didn't come from a business angle either. We all learned the business over time. So there's probably a little chicken and egg thing between you and I, Darren, because we're probably commenting and having conversations about the same threads from other people that were posting there. And I'm gonna say this politely, but a lot of people are on LinkedIn complaining about the marketplace, complaining about all their, you know, venting about all all the reasons why their their projects aren't going well or how do they find that.
Kirk:What we were looking for was a flagship project. And we almost got a couple over the last few years, but the pandemic made things interesting. And but we've gotten a few, products launched now. We're all creative folks that are trying to work with like minded people, and we saw your film as you and I just got to know each other even as friends and colleagues in doing jam sessions, but Faith of Angels was like, oh, that's exactly our in line with our brand, and we've already cracked this nut of of distribution and sales and financing certain, debt pieces of a film. But we care more about our brand.
Kirk:We care more about, the the the content we're gonna deliver to the consumers out there. We think there's a market for films like this, so it's great. We're very excited about that film and and the exposure that it's gotten. And, hopefully, it it just keeps
Garrett:going.
Daren:Yeah. Well, Kirk, I we brought you on today because we've been documenting the process of releasing these 2 films over the last few months. And where we are right now is Faith of Angels is kind of winding down theatrically, and we are now looking at, okay, what are the digital distribution, the foreign distribution options for the film? And so just as we've had Purdy on and we've had Michelle Moore on to talk about their parts of the, the process. We wanted to have you on really go deep on what does digital distribution look like.
Daren:What does sales what is the role that you play? So, Garrett, where do you wanna start? You're probably thinking about this even more than I am right now.
Garrett:Yeah. No. I think, I mean, that's a great question. I'd love to know. I think it's important for independent filmmakers might be listening to this podcast to know, first of all, who is Heartstrings?
Garrett:What is your business model? And then what is your role with Faith of Angels and getting it out to
Kirk:Yeah.
Garrett:The the domestic streaming market?
Kirk:Yeah. I can answer a little bit of that in reverse order maybe. I was thinking about this, had a conversation with a friend this morning who's not in the film industry, and distribution has the same definition to him as it does for us. And so I just, for the heck of it, looked up dictionary. Does anyone still use a dictionary?
Kirk:I guess I used Google, but I've got the Oxford definition here of distribution, the action of sharing something out sharing something out among a number of recipients. So distribution is taking a product and sharing it with a number of people. That's basically what distribution is. And so I'm a big advocate of self distribution, but I'm not a big advocate of doing your own root canals. Right?
Kirk:Just because you've you've got this product and you might and with Darren, we talk about this on LinkedIn all the time. Should we should filmmakers do that, self distribution? That's what Heartstrings started with. You know, we're getting kinda tired of the various channels you had to go through, multiple sales agents, then some other sales agent becomes a distributor and the distributor is really a platform. And so if you could just get your product to a number of recipients, you are the distributor.
Kirk:But the same way you hire your DP and your editor and you pay your actors and you pay your catering people, maybe we should think about our own films as a business. And maybe we should be in charge of distribution and sales and marketing and raise the money. So Heart Strings saw that. We've been talking about this for a couple years now. We've distributed our own films before.
Kirk:We've done it. It's hard, and we've failed at it, and we've also succeeded at it. And and we build those relationships. So what Heart Strings really is is a brand that's gonna take, content with character to the marketplace, and we're the curators of it. We want a good quality film.
Kirk:We want with a good message and content we believe in. And then to get to that market, it is that distribution definitions. But you need advertising money, marketing money. Sometimes films need debt financing, finishing funds. There's different things we could get into about debt financing, but Heartstrings Media Capital started as a way we're not gonna finance equity of a film.
Kirk:That's not the game we're in. We're gonna curate content with characters. So we're gonna add value, by getting to those other platforms, spending some money on marketing, p and a, helping coordinate unique ideas. I think Faith Angels did a great job getting in hundreds of theaters nationwide. And, we wanna keep doing that.
Kirk:And so that's what Heartstrings Media Capital is, and we're looking for filmmakers that understand that their film is art, but it is even probably more commerce. And it's a marriage of art and commerce.
Garrett:Yeah. Well Yeah. So what does that look like for an independent filmmaker that says, look. I you know, here I am. I've done my theatrical release, or I'm not doing a theatrical release, or I I want to now distribute the film.
Garrett:But like you say, I don't wanna do my own root root canal. Yeah. Passionate as I am about my own teeth. I want an expert to help me do that. What what does that look like?
Kirk:Yeah. I think, you know, the best thing you can do is talk whether it's our company or others. Talk before you before you make your film, do your homework. Find out who the market is. Find out if there is a market for it, And bring your distribution partners and your marketing partners on early even while you're casting and budgeting and looking for locations.
Kirk:And maybe maybe you'll end up finding product placement as a way to make additional but if you do that early I'd go back to supply and demand. If you had let I'll use the Walmart example. My buddy and I were talking about this morning. But let's say you had a great invention. It's the electric broom, and you make a million of them.
Kirk:You manufacture them in Brainerd, Minnesota, and then you take a million. You take 3 semi truck loads full of these electric rooms to Walmart and sell them, and they're like, wait. We don't need that. We already have 5 robot vacuums, and they're they're fine. This this was a bad idea.
Kirk:So in the in the real world of commerce, usually, there's supply and demand. Usually, there's a buyer that needs they say, we love your prototype. Could you print a million of those? Then you go backwards and and make your movie in this case or print, you know, manufacture and and produce a 1,000,000 electric brooms. But in So I in film, yeah, reverse engineer in back into the buyer.
Garrett:Okay. So so the scenario I described your in in your experience, your expertise is saying that's a that's a second choice. That's that's a plan b. Plan a is as an independent filmmaker, hey, I got an idea or I got a script or I I want I have a skill and I'm gonna now talk to you early. So you say, hey, do you think that there's a market for a movie about a boy that's lost in a mind and Yeah.
Garrett:And made by so and so and starring so and so.
Kirk:Yeah. And
Daren:if we believe in
Kirk:the script and the filmmaker and we see that potential, we we we can be a part of that. Let's build the audience. Let's go navigate that. Let's you know, in in film, there are still some places that are prebuying content. But if but at the very least, you could get some do some research and development and figure out some presale estimates.
Kirk:Hey. What is this film gonna be worth with these actors in this genre, with this director? And, it is hard. You know? It's not like there's buyers out there just waiting to finance your film for x number of 1,000,000 of dollars.
Kirk:You gotta build that relationship. They're they might if they like you. They have a relationship with you. But do as much research as you can early on before you make the film. I think that's the thing I see over and over again because when filmmakers bring me their film and it's already done, a lot of times it is not going to have a market.
Kirk:There's it's just not going to make any money and it's who wants to be the deliverer of bad news.
Garrett:Yeah. So yeah. No. That's a tough situation. And having having been in that situation, before that that is, that's a an uncomfortable spot because you've made a film and now you now you have to find an audience.
Garrett:I think that's kinda that's a lot of the tone of this podcast is, a start early in building your audience. And if you've got a following of 50 people on YouTube, that's your audience and you budget and plan and target that audience with a little growth, hopeful. But don't, yeah. Okay so moving on to that we do have a film we got Faith of Angels you guys saw it, Heartstrings signed up said hey we're gonna now take this to distributors, oh excuse me you are the sales agent that is taking this to streamers. What are those conversations like?
Garrett:What can an independent filmmaker expect to hear from a buyer that's gonna go, okay, we're we're in the right path.
Kirk:Yeah. Things have changed so much and so fast and, maybe for future episodes, you guys could go into what's AI gonna do for the distribution landscape. It is going to affect us all whether we like it or not. What it sounds like with some of these buyers is a variety of things. Like, we have an opening in 26, so you gotta wait a year.
Kirk:Or we have a Christmas movie, for example. It's coming out in North America this year, but the international, distributor slash sales agent wants to release it next year. It's not the most ideal situation, and we didn't wanna hear that. But it is what it is. So you get those kind of questions.
Kirk:When it actually comes to licensing, some are some streamers are really, subscription based, something like Netflix, but some are advertising based like Tubi. And so you're approaching those differently, and and those contracts that they're offering are are being adjusted a little bit too. A lot of it has to do, you know, devil in the details stuff, but it really is a matter of how long does the platform believe that they can monetize your your content.
Garrett:Mhmm.
Kirk:And then on your end, as a filmmaker, you're trying to navigate, how long do we wanna give each different kind of platform and how many different avenues are there? There's advertising AVOD, advertising video on demand, subscription based video on demand. There's cable TV. There's still DVDs. Walmart will still buy who knows?
Kirk:You might have 50,000 copies, DVDs in Walmart still. That's still a market. So you're trying to navigate where where is the best place. And some want all rights, meaning they wanna take your film and do everything with it or nothing with it, and you lose a lot of control there too. So I think for streaming, it's getting it's getting really challenging.
Kirk:I always ask independent filmmakers, what are the last three movies that you spent money on to watch? That's and you're an independent filmmaker. It better be independent films that you spent money on. But that's the audience. So, again, if you don't know your audio streamers, I think, are guessing too, but you're starting to see more specific things.
Kirk:Like, Pure Flix now has a specific their own platform. It's pretty specific. Shudder and some of these other there's an app for everything now. Yeah. Angel Studios.
Kirk:Angel Studios has its own.
Garrett:Has their own app. Yeah. Yeah.
Daren:So here's one of the definitely details maybe questions is, like, do you think the landscape is even friendly for independent filmmakers anymore? Like, is it worth trying to get your movie on Netflix? Because it feels to me like because they're more of a tech company than they are a studio or a film distribution company, they have learned how to extract as much money, profit from the marketplace as possible, including from the filmmakers. And that's, I think, a bold statement, but it's what I'm seeing because, like, 10 years ago, 8 years ago, whatever it was, you could get an upfront payment from a Netflix or a similar type platform, whereas now it's all streaming based. It's based on hours watched or minutes watched or, you know, purchases, which you can't do on Netflix.
Daren:But, like, you're getting fractions of a cent on an hour streamed. And they're basically saying, look. You can become a commodity in our marketplace and see how it performs, and they're taking no interest in it. This is a this is a pretty blanket statement here. I'm sure there are exceptions, but, like, is it something that indie filmmakers should even be pursuing anymore trying to get a film on Netflix?
Kirk:If they do, they should do it before they make their film. Have Netflix pay for it. Give them just tell them what your budget is, and if Netflix is willing to cover that budget. And that's the only time you're ever gonna see money from Netflix. Let let them finance your film.
Kirk:But if they didn't want your film early on, they probably won't want it when you're done. And the number will go down. So so I don't know if it's worth it, but I I if if you can get a Netflix to or or any kind of, app like that streamer to finance your film, great. But let's just say you made a movie for a1000000. Don't expect Netflix to give you that million back.
Kirk:Their licensing fee and I'm just spitballing. This isn't for any specific project, but their licensing fee might be 5 years for a $100. And you might find that all your other revenues are not as great because now people can just see your movie on Netflix, and you're not getting paid per view or per click or per minute watched. You're you've got your licensing fee. They're not you're not gonna get a report from Netflix, tracking, the money side of it.
Daren:Yeah.
Kirk:You've gotten your your licensing fee. So I wouldn't
Daren:say your audience. Like, you don't get an email address. You don't get to the names of people who streamed it. Like, you get nothing. That's all their audience too.
Kirk:Right. Yeah. So it's probably worth it to if you have a relationship there and, you know, they have a development department and they've got a lot of money. They're making a lot of big things. So if you can get in with them, probably worth it.
Kirk:But it's each and I would say in terms of independent films, I think there's better options for the filmmaker. Put by the way, we touched, We've talked about this off camera a few times. Put money in your marketing. Put money in your budget for marketing. If you have a $2,000,000 movie, maybe half a1000000 should be for marketing.
Kirk:A pretty big chunk of it. Maybe 2,000,000. Maybe you should spend as much as you spent on the production itself because this is a game of sales and marketing and exposure. And if people don't know about your film, they're not gonna watch it.
Daren:Well, and Jason Blum is on the record saying that marketing is easily 50%, if not more of the success of his movies. And so if that's true, if 50% of this success is the marketing, well, it probably makes sense to have an equal marketing budget to your production budget.
Kirk:Yeah. I'm wondering why they don't teach this in film school. I didn't go to film school, but I hear about it all the time. They don't teach this in film school. They're teaching you how to get the film in the cam and color correct.
Garrett:So what is what is the ideal deal scenario? What is your ideal scenario then for an independent filmmaker that's listening to this says, hey, I don't wanna walk away from this hopeless. Like, how how does it work? How do I make how do I make my next movie wisely?
Kirk:Well, if you believe in your your talent and if you believe in your story, that it. You know? Get other people to believe in the story before you make it. I think there's a lot of hope for independent filmmakers right now. A lot.
Kirk:Yeah. Because there are platforms that need content. But if you understand that let's say you mentioned, Blumhouse. Let's say there's a horror film company out there, and they're willing to give you a $200,000 for your film. Maybe your budget should be a 150.
Kirk:You, like, back into those things. Understand the market. Understand the value of your art. Imagine this. Imagine you're a painter in your in your garage, you're painting a masterpiece, and you love it, and and everyone loves it, and and an art gallery picks it up, and they put it on display, but no one bought it.
Kirk:Yeah. That's what your art was worth. It was only worth what someone paid for it. So when you understand that, you can actually go back to your most favorite project that you love, that you know has artistic value, a great story, and and then navigate carefully into the into the marketplace. And I think what filmmakers can do is, like I said, surround yourself with awesome people that can help you with your vision because they're gonna come back and say, here's the numbers.
Kirk:You know? Don't do your own root canal. Right? Like, I would say have a distributor and a producer with distribution experience on your team. And I would say vet the heck out of your script and have get a lot of coverage and get a lot of other industry feedback and find out what are the what's your competition doing.
Kirk:So when you know that, you can still be an artist, but you can be an informed artist.
Garrett:Okay. So that's, so then that ideal scenario for where does heartstrings play into that? Where do you and heartstrings play into that?
Kirk:Yeah. We're looking for filmmakers that have that understanding. Like, they really care about the audience and the consumers, and they want to deliver awesome content to that audience. I think faith of angels hit it right on the head. I mean, you have a based on a true story is a very you know, even Netflix will say that's they're they people want based on a true story stuff.
Kirk:You got a great film, great script, great crew, great actors. You have a good product there, and you know, because you guys have been in this space for a while, and I know heartstrings ours isn't necessarily all faith based. We're doing family friendly. We call it inspirational or feel good content. But we do know that there's not enough content for those audiences.
Kirk:They they tell us all the time, nobody's making not enough faith based films are being made or not enough feel good family friendly PG movies are being made. So I think that's what you should do early on is bring on build your team. Don't try to do everything yourself. Don't do your own root canals is one of my go to slogans that I talk about all the time, but it really start thinking about it. It does take a village.
Daren:Yeah.
Kirk:And so I would rather own 13% of something that's successful than a 100% of something that failed.
Daren:So it sounds like you you said, you know, have them on the team. It means as early as development is starting, as soon as you have a script, a director, you've attached a producer, at the same time you're attaching a producer to help with production, you should be attaching a distributor or a sales agent that can inform the casting, that can inform the budget, that can inform the strategy for marketing so you can reverse engineer how you're gonna market the film from day 1 and not once the film is, you know, in the can and ready for the marketplace. Like, that's a year or more of time that you could have been marketing the film and building that audience if you start from day 1 and start just kinda showing the behind the scenes and, the process of it all. That's That's great. So now go ahead and Garrett.
Garrett:I was going to say, I was just going to add onto that and it's, yeah, it's very informative because then we're saying as the filmmaker, I hear that and I go, Oh, that sounds like so much work. And like, it sounds so, uncreative to like go and say, okay, foreign sales agent, who should I cast in this role? And yet on the flip side, you know, here we are on the flip side of that going, not having done that and talking now to a foreign sales agent saying, yeah, we'll try to sell you a movie, but should you had maybe early on cast this individual, it would have been an easy sale. Yeah. And so I think you're right.
Garrett:I mean, either way, you have to swallow that pill.
Kirk:And, also, I just thought of something you both touched on it, but it's interesting that if you're what if you're the writer and director? You probably don't have time to produce. And you don't need just 1 producer, you might need 3 or 4. There's different for people outside of the film industry, they might not know this. But, you know, there's executive producers, line producers, producers, creative producers.
Kirk:Everyone gets these producer credits. But it's really understanding on your team who's in charge of what. And if you're the writer director, I would highly recommend, even if you found money from uncle John who's gonna finance your film. Again, don't do your own root canal. Hire people.
Kirk:High bring on people that believe in your and some one of your producers on your team or a foreign sales agent partner might say, yeah. Had you cast this person, there'd be more value because sales and distribution has a lot to do with what's on the poster. I've I've talked to more sales agents who said I sold a movie from a poster, and we hadn't even written a script yet. That's sales.
Daren:Yeah.
Garrett:I yeah. I mean, that's a good spot to be in for a filmmaker and, yeah. I I think I think it's necessary, you know, unless we wanna kinda stay in these very small, you know, only talking to my audience type movies. Mhmm. Great.
Garrett:I can continue to do that. But if if the goal is to build and expand an audience, then the people that are bringing on bring in early on, you know, Darren has an audience and heartstrings has an audience and they'll say, okay. I just we we just signed an agreement for foreign rights to faith of angels, and, they are interested in looking at other projects that we're doing early on, saying, hey. What are you doing early on, and how can we help Yeah. In that process?
Garrett:So what what you say is is, is true. You're validated.
Kirk:Yeah. And it goes back to LinkedIn. Like Darren said, now you have something to talk about on LinkedIn. Now you're gonna have engagement with people, and you can say, here here's what we learned on this film. You add value, as a producer.
Kirk:The more the more times you've done it, the more times you've failed, and the more times you've succeeded, you you add value. I just encourage filmmakers to not feel like it's sort of bureaucratic or like, oh, this is kind of boring now. I've lost control. More about, building a team. It's your film is a business.
Daren:Yeah. 100%. So it's it's just been interesting to hear kind of the big picture of how sales plays into it. Can we get into the dirt a little bit, like, into the grunt work of, you know, we talked to Purdy and they're like, and, Susan Tuckett about what does a distributor do, and they're like, Monday mornings or hell? They just are 20 hours of calling and emailing every single person doing all the things.
Daren:Now we're sitting here with Purdy, and now they have 2 films at the same time, we're like, well, keep fighting for Faith of Angels 2. I know you got to do work on Carpenter. Like, so what does the day to day look like? Are you calling people? Are you building relationships?
Daren:Are you going to markets? Like, what does your role as the head of development and, acquisitions and the president of the company look like?
Kirk:My role is different than some of the other partners, and I'm I'm, head of development, so I'm finding new content, folks like yourself, managing those relationships, trying to, communicate internally with our own team and some, other distributors and platforms where we think we're asking them all the time. What what is it you're looking for? What can we do for you? And they say, say bring us content like this. And then I have to go back and try to find that kind of content that meets the criteria of what we're hoping for.
Kirk:And each film has a different role. I mean, we're doing some debt financing on some films where that's what we did. We did the debt financing piece. We believed in the film, and we're happy to support it in other ways. We do work with some sales guys once in a while who say, man, I just I'm on the phone all day just selling.
Kirk:And it and I'm personally not the cold calling type. I'm the relationship type. So I'm gonna put out feelers to distributors or platforms and say, look. Are you look I'm I'm not gonna pitch Faith of Angels to Blumhouse because I already know. And I've met them a couple times.
Kirk:I know exactly what they want, and you can Google them. You pretty much know what What
Garrett:they want.
Kirk:What they want. So then you sort of fine tune it. And then there's some hindsight 2020. Some projects like Faith of Angels, we came in pretty late in the game. There are other movies where we come in earlier.
Kirk:I know one of the questions we talked about off camera a couple weeks ago, Darren, was the concept of a day and date release. And
Garrett:Mhmm.
Kirk:So a lot of what I like to do is go to distributors who do a day and date release just in general and say, hey. Look. If I had a film for you, what would be your strategy? Versus cold calling them and selling them something right now that I'm not sure that I I wanna make sure they want something like that.
Daren:So explain? Because Yeah. The audience may not even know what a day and date release is. How's that Yeah. From a theatrical
Kirk:The idea of it coming out in theaters and digitally at the same time. When you're on Dish TV or Dish Network or DIRECTV, and some other platforms where you'll see a trailer, and it'll say in theaters now. And that sometimes gets you better placement on those platforms. Now you're, on a movie that we have coming out pretty soon. We're getting a banner ad on DIRECTV and DISH Network saying in theaters now.
Kirk:And so that's the day and date. It's the idea of let's release this film theatrically because, honestly, who has time to go to a theater anymore or the money to go to a theater? And then when they do, there's so much competition, and we're all competing against a handful of Marvel Comics movies for that. So then if they can't make it to the theater, isn't it great that it's also available on a pay per view channel?
Daren:Very cool, Kirk. So, you know, we are getting close to your time. We don't want to take up too much of your day. You've been very generous. So I think one thing that's interesting is we've talked about this strategy a lot of like bringing a distributor in early early early as early as possible.
Daren:I think today is the earliest we've mentioned, which is like in the same call, the same day you call your producer, you call your distributor and get them on the team. So how how do they do that? Like, is there a way to reach out to not just you and heartstrings, but, like, in general Mhmm. What does that outreach look like? Because I know a lot of people, especially in this audience, are faith based or inspirational, family friendly filmmakers.
Daren:So where do they look, and how do they reach out to people? What should they be thinking about in that process?
Garrett:Yeah. I'd even add what materials are you should they prepare for you?
Kirk:Yeah. Pitch decks. We like pitch decks. It could be a creative lookbook. Just here's the vision of it.
Kirk:But the more you can put in your pitch deck the research and development that you've done on your own, the more you can make this pitch deck make business sense. I mean, it should really be a business plan, and we could talk about that some other time. But put as much material as you can. Do a sizzle reel or a mood reel if you can to show us what the movie's gonna look like in your mind. And then, again, you know, if you're the writer director, maybe stay in that position and look for a producing partner, someone that will will lead the charge for you and and decide.
Kirk:Do you wanna be in charge, or are you willing to share the responsibility? Maybe you just need to delegate that duty. So how to reach out to a distributor, it's not again, if you bring on a producer with with experience, maybe that's their job. And so as a team, you figure out, okay. We've shopped this around.
Kirk:We found a couple distributors. You may not sign the distributor on day 1 of casting or script development, but you might have had a conversation with them to find out whether or not they're interested in this product. It might be like my example with Walmart. They might not want a 1000000 electric brooms right now. They might tell you go make this other kind of movie and you might I'm sorry to say it, but you might abandon one of your projects for another one.
Kirk:If you're a filmmaker who just wants to make awesome content, have a lot of content ready to make and go with the one that makes the most sense.
Daren:Yeah. Yeah.
Kirk:Especially early on. And reaching out to a distributor just is about relationships.
Daren:It also sounds like it's a lot about packaging both on both sides. When you're reaching out to a distributor to get on board with your movie early on, It's about here's the genre. Here's the actors we're looking at. Here's the budget range we're thinking about. Here's we're going to film it.
Daren:Here's who is involved, and all of that goes into the pitch deck so that you in 5 minutes can go, oh, I get what this is and this either does look like the stuff that we do or doesn't look like the stuff that we do. As a producer, I do the same thing. Someone sends me a script, and I the first thing I say is, well, what's the budget that you're thinking about doing this at? And if they say 500, 700 k, I go, it's probably not for me because I don't do those budget ranges because you can't afford my rate at those budget ranges. And so I instantly instead of taking the 2 hours to read the script and to consider it and do all those things, I just go, hey.
Daren:Maybe you should talk to so and so so and so so and so because they're earlier on and they're hungry and looking for projects, whereas I'm not right now. So it's all packaging, and it's the same thing that you talked about with the sales agents. They go to a market, and they can sell a movie to a distributor or to a platform off of a poster because it's that's packaging on one page. Who's in it? What genre is it?
Daren:You should be able to tell from the poster, and who's involved. Right? If it's the writer director of Saratov approach, then all of a sudden you're going, oh, I love that movie. I'll probably like this one too. And so packaging is maybe something that we need to spend some more time on, Garrett, in another episode of what does that process look like.
Daren:But it sounds like it's this it's essential early on in attracting a distributor before you have money, before you have the project, and it's really important once you're selling the project.
Garrett:Yeah. I think it's, as a filmmaker then, I'm hearing that and I'm saying, look. My job early on is to make the distributor's job easy. Like, make that an easy yes. And so, like you say, Darren, it's packaging and I'm amazed at the, and I I say this on this podcast, it's probably gonna this is probably gonna come back and haunt me, but I'm amazed at the lack of ability for well, let's see.
Garrett:Let me let me not blame anybody. I'm amazed at my lack of ability to communicate my vision to somebody. And so all these tools like a vision board, and a and a rip reel, and, you know, and a an actor that's already agreed to do it, that is going to help communicate my vision clearly to somebody. So that they go, oh, that's easy. Whereas it might be in my head, I might go, hey, this is a cool, a cool movie about a boy that gets lost in a mind.
Garrett:That distributor has no idea what's in my head. And they might think, oh, is it a comedy? Is it a horror? I mean, what what is this? So I have to really make that very, very clear.
Daren:Yeah. Well, and I think it speaks to what Kurt kind of alluded to is, like, who's on your team? And so so many of us think that independent means alone, and it doesn't. It means just not dependent on other outside sources. So, like, you do as much as you can on your own, but in the same vein as you wouldn't do your own root canal, you still need to acquire people who are better at things than you are.
Daren:You you're not act acting in and shooting and lighting and doing sound on your movie at the same time. You're doing one role. You were the writer and then you were the director, and you said, I'm not going to produce at the same time as I'm directing because that's insane, and so you hired a producer. So in the same way, hire someone to do a really great pitch deck for you. Hire someone to do a really great sizzle reel for you.
Daren:There might be other people who would love nothing more than to do that for a living. Just create sizzle reels for concepts, for projects every day. It's interesting
Kirk:you bring it's interesting you bring that up. A lot of times, the filmmakers wanna do the trailer, but the distributor redoes it. Ask yourself this. Who do you think knows more about movie trailers? Probably the distributor.
Kirk:They're the ones with the poster that sold it at at the foreign market.
Garrett:Right.
Kirk:They know what 60 seconds of that movie needs to be in there for their buyers. The filmmakers, a lot of times, I feel this way too. When I've made a move. We lose control of our vision that way, but but the the the distributor, the seller, and the buyer know what their consumers want.
Garrett:Right. Because that's They'll
Kirk:let them recut.
Garrett:Yeah. Yeah.
Daren:Josh, so cool. Well, Kirk, where can people learn more about you and about heartstrings? Where do you send people to reach out to you? Do you have an email address where they can send their pitch deck? Like, what's the best way for people to get in touch?
Kirk:Well, LinkedIn is pretty easy to find me there.
Daren:Full service.
Kirk:Yeah. And, Heartstrings has a website. I'm gonna say it wrong, so let me heartstrings.media. And my email is Kirk at heartstrings.media. Yeah.
Kirk:But I think, you know, back to your point. Get that pitch deck ready and your vision ready, and then show how you're building your team and be open to expanding that team. That's kind of the way I would like to I I won't read a script usually like you like you said. I would prefer to see the pitch deck and the mood reel. I'll know within a couple minutes if it if it fits what we're looking for.
Daren:Well, and I I bet you get bonus Hopefully hopefully
Garrett:you get yeah. Hopefully you get lots of people sending.
Daren:Just gonna say bonus points if you say I heard you on the Truly Independent podcast.
Garrett:That's right.
Kirk:Yes. That's right. And, maybe we'll make Faith of Angels part 2.
Garrett:There we
Kirk:go. Stuck
Daren:in the mind again.
Garrett:Didn't learn didn't learn his lesson.
Daren:Awesome. Thanks so much, Kirk. It's great seeing you. I'm sure we'll be chatting soon as we do. So appreciate you coming on.
Daren:Hey, indie filmmakers and movie lovers. This show is sponsored by Purdy Distribution. Since 2011, they've been bringing incredible independent films to theaters, like Garrett Batty's The Saratov Approach, T. C. Christensen's Love Kennedy, and MacLean Nelson's Once I Was A Beehive.
Daren:They've worked with top notch directors like Mitch Davis and Mark Goodman, specializing in family, faith based, and funny films. This year alone, they've released hits with JK Studios like Go West and Villains Inc, and have even branched out internationally with films shot in South Africa and Japan. Purdy Distribution works closely with indie filmmakers, designing personalized distribution plans, whether it's a theatrical release or straight to streaming on platforms like Amazon, Itunes, Google, and more. If you have a PG or PG 13 film ready for the world, think about reaching out to Purdy Distribution. They're approachable and knowledgeable, ready to help you visualize your film's distribution.
Daren:Even if your film isn't fully polished, they can offer valuable guidance. Plus, if you need that crucial distribution piece for investor packages, Purdy Distribution can provide a letter of intent to distribute, helping you secure funding without locking you into a contract. Mark your calendars for Purdy Distribution's upcoming releases. Tokyo Cowboy on August 30th, the digital release of Thabo and the Rhino Case on September 1st, Faith of Angels in theaters on September 12th, Villains Inc on Amazon and Itunes on October 1st, and The Carpenter on November 1st. To stay updated on these releases and more, sign up for their newsletter at purdiedistribution dotcom.
Daren:That's purdiedistribution.com. Now, back to the show. Oh, man. Kirk, what a stud. That was awesome.
Garrett:Great conversation with Kirk. Man, I love what those guys are doing there. I just looked up their web page and, at, heartstrings.media, and it's fun to see the the collection of movies that they are getting ready to distribute.
Daren:Yeah. I think one of my biggest takeaways, and it's something that's kind of been reinforced over and over and over through the process of releasing Faith of Angels, is like how essential it is for independent filmmakers to build a bigger team so much earlier on than we think is reasonable, right, because I think we go well a distributor is not going to come on and tell the movie's made. In reality, they would prefer it's not just Kirk that said this, but every distributor I've talked to or sales agent is like, oh, bring us in as early as possible because we want to be involved in the strategy. We wanna be involved in the casting. We wanna be involved in the budgeting and where it's gonna end up, and all of that is so much easier to do before the movie is, you know, fundraised and filmed and delivered.
Daren:So I think that's a crusade I'm about to go on or continued on. It's like indie filmmakers start building your team for marketing at the same time as you're building your team for production because they're equal parts in the success of your film in the marketplace.
Garrett:I think as a filmmaker, the I mean, that's a scary proposition. Right? Because you say, hey. I've got this idea. I've got this story.
Garrett:I have a vision, and I want my voice out there or whatever it is. I wanna tell this story. Great. And it's scary to bring on a partner so early on that there's that, maybe reservation of, you know, am I gonna lose this creative control? Or or even worse, am I gonna lose, the opportunity that that I want, which, you know, whether it's to direct or produce or whatever it is, is involving larger, you know, bigger, you know, distributors or whatever it is going to risk that opportunity.
Garrett:So I get it. It's a give and take. But I would I think that there's value in having these partners and getting to make your movie, rather than I've gotta continue to shrink up my budget and and make you're you're going to have to make compromises eventually. So maybe make them early on with partners that, that can help you get your movie done. Yeah.
Garrett:I think also as you're bringing those on sorry, Darren. I'm I'm kinda harping on this. Protect yourself. Like, make sure that that's in your contract. Like, hey.
Garrett:Yes, we wanna involve this distributor upfront, but because they are bringing money. You know, not like, yeah, we're gonna help you get your movie done. Can you raise the money for it? And then you're like, well, I'm doing all of this that I would be doing either way, and and yet now you own part of it. So make sure that they bring equal experience or whatever it is, the equal, equity that you are bringing.
Daren:Yeah. Well, I I want to hearken back to I think it was last week where we're talking about the spectrum between art and commerce. And if you want to make money from your movies so that you can make more of them, you do need to make some considerations about the marketplace and what better people to do it than those who are in it every single day having conversations with the marketplace. That's your distributor and your sales agents. But the thing I constantly hear is like, well, I want to make films.
Daren:I want to make auteur films. I want to be Wes Anderson and he doesn't compromise. I was like, well, hold on a sec. He probably did early on and the reason he doesn't have to compromise now is because he's earned it. Like, if you've done the films that Wes Anderson has done, which are just an incredible, oeuvre of like a body of work.
Daren:There. How about that word for today's word of the day? But like he's earned it. Right? He doesn't compromise now, and people line up to distribute and fund his next movie because they want to be a part of this art project that Wes Anderson is gonna create.
Daren:And you don't get to do that on your first film. I'm sorry. Like, you've got to either make a really great art film short that cost under $30, right, and didn't lose a whole bunch of money for a lot of people. And then Yeah. Like, unquestionably, it's the best thing out there at the time.
Daren:There's a guy on Twitter right now, Luke something. I can look it up and put a link in the show notes. But he put out a short film, and it's done like 4,000,000 views in 2 or 3 weeks on Twitter. And now he's releasing it on YouTube, and it's opened up all these doors. And he's got Rian Johnson and Edgar Wright and big filmmakers that are commenting on it going, this is amazing.
Daren:Great work. Like, it's undeniably at that level. Right? So whatever he does next, he earned it because he created something that was valuable enough in the marketplace even for free where people are, like, lining up and talking to him about his next project. You got to earn it.
Daren:That's the other hard thing about putting your work in front of and connecting it with the marketplace is sometimes it's confrontational. You think it's more valuable than the market does. And that's really hard pill to swallow, but it kind of speaks to what you were saying of like, yeah, well, what are you making? Are you making an art piece? Then make an art piece.
Daren:But if you're making something for the marketplace, I'd say go all the way and really make it that fiftyfifty partnership between the marketing, the marketplace, the sales, and the art of the film that you're trying to make.
Garrett:Yeah. It's the it's the tortured artist, Sarah. But yeah. No. It's very good.
Garrett:Okay. Well, speaking of earning it Yeah. Let's brief look at our box office for the weekend. Again, we're recording this October 22nd. So our weekend is, off of, October 18th through 20th.
Garrett:Smile 2 came out as number 1. I will mention this, you know, we don't wanna spend a ton of time at box office. Wild Robot, Kurt Kirk mentioned doing this day and date release. Wild Robot came out on September 27th. It's, 2 2 weeks later it was promoting their rent and buy now for home viewing.
Garrett:And they are still in the box office, their number 2 film at 10,000,000. Yeah. But, you know, just over the weekend we could have rented it at our house for the price of going to a movie. So that's a really interesting model.
Daren:Yeah. Very interesting. And, we have guests in the future that we can talk to about this strategy of day and date versus strictly theatrical because there is some data around which one is arguably better for especially for independent filmmakers. There's a teaser for you. But let's look at our model.
Daren:I think there's no new releases that are using our model that are in the top 10 or really even the top 20. There's a movie called Rumors, number 20 film on 630 screens, just under a $500 per screen average, 311,000 over the weekend. That's Bleecker Street Media. And then
Garrett:That's amazing. I'm surprised that that's not higher. That's a Kate Kate Blanchett. Yeah. You know, it's supposed to be kind of this really indie bizarre type movie, but I'm really surprised it's not higher for the amount of advertising I've seen for it.
Daren:Yeah. I haven't seen much for that one, but I've also been kinda out of the loop, I think, with how much we've been doing on these movies. And then you got, number 22 film exhibiting forgiveness, 774 screens, 356 per screen average. So I think I wanna look at again to see if our if my thought is holding. Right?
Daren:We had a low $23,000,000 opening, or number 1 film with smile 2, and then the number 10 is at a 1.2. So, again, I think the lower the number one is, the higher the number 10 is. That's that's the simplest way I can say that. And 1.2 is in the top 30% of this year's number 10 spot. Whereas on the weeks of big, big, big releases, you could be in the top 10 with a 4 or $500,000 opening weekend.
Daren:So Yeah. Interesting.
Garrett:Alright. I wanna look at those strategies. It's also amazing that, number 10 and number 12 are Nightmare Before Christmas and Hocus Pocus. These are 30 plus year old films Yeah. That are coming out and, again, in the top 10.
Garrett:What makes me think about doing a genre or holiday movie?
Daren:Right? I mean, you you kinda have that with, I think there's totally good reason for doing a 40th anniversary of the event rerelease of faith of angels, right, in 5 years and a 50th anniversary. Like, you could totally play that card, especially if it kind of finds an even bigger audience on streaming and on digital and through whatever other, windows we're looking at for our strategy. You know, we've we look at how many people saw our movie. We're well over 50,000 people have seen our movie in theaters.
Daren:That's a that's a really great core audience to help with the digital side that we can say, hey. Now it's on streaming. Now it's on this platform. Support it. Go tell your friends, and that grows the audience even more.
Daren:So it'll be fun to see. Very cool. I love diving into the numbers every week. It's one of my favorite aspects. So we do have one listener question, and it's a big question.
Daren:So we can give kind of simple answers, I think, for this one, and then I'll email the guy back.
Garrett:I I hear your hands. I'll I'll simple No.
Daren:It's me. I'm the one who does too much to you. I do I'm trying so hard today to keep it to, like, 60 second answers, and I'm probably failing again. Here's the question from a guy named Sean on LinkedIn of all places. Hi, Darren.
Daren:What's the best way to promote yourself and your project to get noticed without seeming desperate or boastful? So I think that caveat can help us with the containing the answer a little bit without seeming desperate or boastful. So what do you think on
Garrett:this one? I think, a couple of things come to mind immediately. 1 is, it's better to have other people talking about your movie that you can share rather than you being the one that's talking about it. So, you know, like today for Carpenter, we have, Kenny that is going to, be on, you know, Fox 13 local channel talking about Carpenter. I'm for sure gonna share that, but it's nice to have somebody else talking about it.
Garrett:And, and I'm able to share it. I think another thing is don't create don't create something out of nothing. Like, you know, avoid the, you know, hashtag set life. Hey. Hey.
Garrett:Guess what? I finished page 8 of my script. Hashtag filmmaker. No. No.
Garrett:No. No. Make a movie and then talk about, like, have some proof in the pudding. Right? Don't just blow smoke.
Garrett:Yeah. I might push back
Daren:I might push back on that second one a little bit. I think building in public is important, but it's the framing the way that you're framing it matters for sure. Okay. Alright. Because my answer is what where where are you coming from with the posts or or the outreach and the promotion of yourself?
Daren:So, you know, I had there's a an executive producer who I follow online on LinkedIn that posted the other days. Like, I had an invest or a a filmmaker come to me and say, I can guarantee a 2 x return on your money. And it just wasn't true. Like, he didn't have any documents supporting that. No deals in place.
Daren:No nothing. And the guy was just like, I would you know, I I didn't even have a conversation with the guy because I he's lying. You know? He doesn't know that he's lying, but he's lying. So that's really bad framing for a conversation with somebody that can help you move your project along.
Daren:So my short answer is what where's the where are you at with your mindset? Are you in a needy place of, like, I have to find a producer. I have to find the money. I have to do anything to get this project going because that's a really not great place to operate from. If you're showing up every day and going, I desperately need a producer.
Daren:I desperately need financing. That's gonna that's gonna come across in the way you message people, in the way you talk to people, in the way you post. And so instead and this is just a simple mindset shift you can make, which is I have something that's valuable to the people who it's valuable for. And one of the best definitions of success that I've found or how to achieve success that I've found is a statement where he said, you've got to put the stuff that you do exceptionally well in front of the people who already overvalue what you do. So what does that mean?
Daren:Well, if you are a faith based filmmaker, then Purdy Distribution, Susan Tuckett Media, Michelle Moore PR, like all the people we've had on this podcast, Heartstrings Media, they're the people that you want to talk to because they already value faith based family friendly inspirational films. And so don't go to Blumhouse and talk to them about Angels in the or sorry, Angels in the Mind, Faith of Angels. Go to the people who already value faith based family inspirational films. Right? And so realizing that you already have something that's valuable and that there is a market for it out there and then it's just about testing the messaging and going, okay, did this work?
Daren:Did this work? It's exactly what I said at the start of today's episode. I was messaging a whole bunch of people saying, hey. Have you ever thought about investing in film, or have you ever done film investing before? And that was not a great lead in.
Daren:Right? Because it makes them think that I'm just after their money, which I am, but that's not a great framing for the conversation. Instead, being able to change the messaging and say, hey. I see that you're spending time in these kind of film circles. I'd love to have a chat and see what you're working on.
Daren:Taking interest in them. What are they looking for? What do they wanna do? That's how I found out that Kirk had money to put into projects. It's like, okay.
Daren:Well, that worked way better. So now I'm going to use that messaging approach instead. So shift mindset
Garrett:your mindset I think your mindset changes there because, you know, if you whether this was a slip or not, you said, oh, I don't want them to think I'm just after their money which I may am, which I know you and you're not because you are after an experience. You you are providing an experience for them to make money. Yes. Right? That's what you're after.
Garrett:And as a filmmaker, I think the minute we start saying, I just just give me money, give me money. I just didn't even wanna make the film. I don't know how you're gonna get it back. That's where we lose. We say, look, I honestly believe and here is a method that you are going to make money and I get to make a film that's like mutually beneficial.
Daren:Yes. Thank you for calling me out on that. That's Yeah.
Garrett:You are not after that money.
Daren:Yes. Thank you. I'll just
Garrett:I don't mean okay. So I didn't mean to derail it.
Daren:Perfect. I'm glad you did because it's an important takeaway. Like, you can't just be after money. It it can't be dumb money. It can't be any money.
Daren:It can't be expensive money. It like, you need the relationships there, and you need people to trust you and believe that you can deliver the value that you say you're gonna deliver, because a lot of times, it's writing a check, and then you don't really have much involvement from them in the process going forward. It's like, okay. Let us know when it's ready. That's a lot of trust and faith in people, which is why it's hard to raise 1,000,000 of dollars for indie projects, especially from first time and early on filmmakers.
Daren:Okay. I think we've said enough today. Great episode.
Garrett:Great. Yeah. Fun conversation. Thanks for having Kirk on.
Daren:Yeah. We've got some more guests, in the pipeline, which I'm really excited for. We're gonna be talking more about distribution, and then I've got, someone whose name has come up many times in this podcast. I'm so excited. I'm not even gonna tell you who it is today.
Daren:Alright. See you guys in the next one. Later.
Garrett:Thanks, Darren.
Daren:Thank you for listening to this episode of Truly Independent. To join us on the journey, be notified of new episodes and screenings, and ask us questions about today's episode. Head over to 3 coinpro.com/podcast, and put in your name and an email address. If you're a fan of the show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and be sure to share this episode with a friend. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.
Daren:Our intro and outro music is Election Time by Kjartan Evel.
