Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

Hello, and welcome to this week's
episode of Truly Independent.

This week's episode is gonna
look a little bit different.

I'm Garrett Batty, co-host, and with me,
actually not with me, is Darren Smith.

I.

Our other co-host, he is at
the Zions Indie Film Fest.

This has been a, an incredible week.

You've heard us talk about the Zions
Indie Film Fest, on previous episodes.

Uh, Marshall and Michelle
Moore are the festival owners.

They do an incredible job.

It has been an amazing week, and they
invited us to do a live session of truly

independent at their film festival.

I happened to be, during the
week at NRB, uh, which is a big

convention in Dallas, talking about
Faith angels and pitching, films.

And so Darren and I were not
able to do an episode together.

We recorded the live session, uh, at Ziff,
and that's what you're going to hear now.

And then I will talk about NRB and
some of the amazing things that

happened there in an upcoming episode.

So for now, here's Darren.

Take it away.

daren-smith_1_02-28-2025_083543: Well,
you guys are in for a treat today.

I've, Marshall and I have actually been
on the Truly Independent Podcast each

time I listen to the podcast, I'm just
always, appreciative of the information

that they share, of the insight that they.

That they just kind of open up.

They really just pull back the
curtains and give you some really

good tips and tools on putting you
in the best fast lane for success.

And so we're pleased to
have Darren with us today.

He's going to give you a presentation and
we're gonna talk about, he's gonna talk

about all sorts of different things when
it comes to independent filmmaking and,

and put you guys on that right course.

So welcome Darren Smith.

Alright, well I should start, uh,
by mentioning that there's normally

two of us that do this podcast.

Uh, Garrett, my co-host and dear
friend, uh, was at NRB this week out in

Texas and flight things got messed up.

And so he's not here until
later this afternoon.

He will be here later today.

So if you have questions specifically for
him, you can ask him when you see him.

Thank you guys for being here early.

This is awesome.

And this is also our first ever live show.

We talked about doing this last year when.

Uh, Marshall and Michelle, I think
you guys were like episode four of the

podcast, so very early in the journey.

Um, let me give you a little
bit of background and then

what we're gonna talk about.

And then the last half
or so will be q and a.

You guys are lucky because you're
probably getting questions answered.

Um, okay, so my name's Darren Smith.

I'm an independent film producer.

Um, then four feature films.

Before that I did four
seasons of television.

I produced Garrett Bat's Last
Two Features, so Faith of Angels

that was here last year and the
carpenter that was here in 2023.

So we've had a fun run together
and last year we put both

of those films in theaters.

We kind of self distributed along with
Purdy distribution, and we decided we

needed some mechanism that was gonna help
us get awareness for the films that were

coming out because yes, we both have small
online followings, but it's not like we

could reach a million people for free.

So we said, well, let's do
a podcast because we could

demystify the indie film journey.

We can talk about.

What we're doing to release
these films in real time.

And that was kind of the
impetus for the show.

It was really gonna be the two of us.

I mean, we'd bring guests in and
then we've loved bringing guests in.

We've had people like Steven Follows
and Jones Barnes and some really great,

uh, uh, Giles Alderson and like some
really great filmmakers all over the

world, um, that have been on the show.

So it's been a ton of fun.

If you're not subscribed,
you can do so now.

Um, truly independent on all
your favorite podcast players.

Okay, so today, um, Garrett and I
were talking throughout the week,

like, what are we gonna talk about?

What's the topic for today?

And I was here Monday and Tuesday and got
to see some short films, got to see some

features, and really got to connect with
some of my friends here at the festival.

Uh, I've been coming to this festival
since 2012, which was I think year seven.

Does that sound about right?

I don't know when it started.

Do you know the year?

Uh, it started 24th.

So you do the math.

But 2012 is the first year I was here.

Back then they did a
24 hour film festival.

And my then business partner, Alan
Searight and I, we made a little short

film called Cold Case, or Warm Case,
which is a parody of the cold case,

kind of like detective thriller things.

And that same year, a young filmmaker
named Garrett Batty made one, I forget

the name of his, but he was just
telling me that like, that was the year

that we both kind of met each other.

2012.

Um, it was the one time I did something
I was, well, I shouldn't say one time.

I did something I was really proud
of, but like I was really proud

that we beat out Garrett Batty.

So our film took first at the 24
hour film test and his took second.

Um, but as we were thinking about
and talking to each other about what

do we want this episode to be about?

The more I was talking to filmmakers
out in the lobby and in between films,

the more I realized that figuring out
how to leverage your current project or

your current situation in film to get
the next thing would be super helpful.

And Garrett politely reminded me
that this is not a, a show where we

tell you how to do things because we
don't know how to do things right.

No.

Like the, uh, boy and Goldman quote,
nobody knows anything in Hollywood.

Um, and so I'm gonna do my best to
share my experiences and our stories

that we've had over the years.

Um, but I'm also a producer
and my job is to solve problems

and give answers to things.

So it's just by nature if I tend to
tip over into that side of things

of like being prescriptive, just
know that it, there's a story and an

experience that, uh, is behind that.

Okay.

So with that said, I would like to start
with Garrett's thoughts on specifically

how he has leveraged short films that he's
made in the last, you know, 20 years or

however long we've been doing this thing.

Um, in order to get the next thing right.

So it's, it's rare that the
short film is the thing.

It's always if you, if you think of it
as leverage, if you think of it, of it

as a point where you could put a lever
in and put some, um, effort into it

or exert some leverage, it can get you
some momentum into the next project

or to connect with the next person.

So he has three experiences
he wanted to share.

So I'm gonna share these with you first,
and then I'll share a couple of my

experiences of how I did short films and
leveraged them to get the next thing.

So, uh, experience one from Garrett.

My first short was a 24 hour film
competition with Matt Matson and

Jake Schwazo at the seventh annual
LDS Film Fest now Zion's Film Fest.

Were you there?

Yes, I was.

That's the one I was telling you about.

So he said, I leveraged that film
into doing a longer film with

Matt and a TV pilot with Jake.

A short film is as much about
the story as it is about building

the team to make future projects.

So that was his big takeaway from that
one is you can use short films to work

with an actor, a producer, a director,
a writer, a cinematographer, an editor,

a musician, a composer, like whatever
crew position that you're thinking.

And I'd really love to explore what
working with them would be like without

the full commitment of like six months
of time and tens of thousands of dollars.

The short film's a great
way to do it, right?

Because you can say, look, I, I like
your music, but I don't know if you're

quite ready for, um, you know, feature
film length, but let's do a short, let's

do it eight or 12 minute short together
and see how the cinematography pans out.

See how the music pans out.

See how the editing comes
together, or the visual effects.

So that's one way you can
leverage a short film.

You can look at who
can I collaborate with?

That's not my normal people that
you can get kind of outside of

yourself and go, Ooh, I'd love to.

I'd love what they did on
that short film I saw at z.

I'd love to talk to them about doing a one
day or three day shoot together, right?

His second experience, he says,
I used short films to test story

concepts or camera techniques.

I did a short film, and one of the key
reasons I did it was to learn how to

shoot the scene consistently over time.

So he intentionally stretched one
scene into a multi-day shoot, just

to learn how to shoot the same
look over a longer period of time.

Taught me a skill that would
be used for future features.

So this was him as a writer
director, looking at what

do I not know how to do yet?

What are the skills that I feel
like I should have if I wanted to

do a feature version of this story?

That, that make me a little nervous
If, uh, the third one he says,

I've, um, oh, I was asking him to
go into more detail about that.

He said, look, I've, I've done short films
that were, I wrote a short to shoot at

night 'cause I'd never done a night shoot.

I didn't know how I would feel.

I didn't know how it would work.

I didn't know how people would like it.

So I intentionally wrote a short
so that we could film it at night.

And he's done them.

He did another one to test out a camera
technique, like an in-camera freeze

where all the actors froze and then
the camera's moving through them and

he's like, I've never done that, but
I wanted to figure out how to do it.

So I called a buddy and I called some
actors and we went and shot a, a scene.

It never like saw the light of day, but
we just went and shot it and we all got

the experience of what that was like.

And so he uses short films to test
story concepts or camera techniques.

So the things that he was uncertain
about as a director, he would go

out and intentionally write, 'cause
he's a writer, director, producer,

so he could do all those things.

But if you're a director, find a writer
and say, what's something you've always

wanted to try and see how it looked
on screen or go to them and say, I

really wanna test this thing out.

How would you feel about
writing me a, a scene?

And that's a great way to
test out new collaborators.

Going back to tip one and to use
that to expand your skillset.

So the last one he shared was Tip three I.

I made a short film as a proof
of concept for a larger feature.

I had already written a feature length
script, but funding was not available yet.

Our executive producer wanted to
pitch the script to Hollywood.

We persuaded them to film some of the key
moments for a short, they paid for the

short and loved it so much that they ended
up funding the full feature themselves.

That film was released on 500 screens.

That was the carpenter.

The short was a successful proof of
concept that it instilled confidence

in our executive producer and us
that we could execute this movie.

We used shorts as proof of concept
for fundraising or problem solving.

So these are the ones that Garrett
asked me to share to the group today.

Um, and I, you know, I
was part of that as well.

So when Garrett called me and
said, Hey, I'm doing a movie, I.

In, and it's in Cape Town and
we've never been there, we've

never filmed with these people.

We don't really know, but
it's gonna be a blast.

I said, absolutely.

Send me what you've got.

And you sent me the script, but he
sent me this short, like eight minute

teaser and I was blown away with what
they pulled off with just a couple of

days filming in the middle of Covid.

It was like summer of 2020.

They went down to, I think Capernaum
Studios in Texas where they filmed

the chosen, because they were also
exploring that as a filming location.

So he's hitting a couple of these
tips in one proof of concept.

Can I work with these actors?

Can I work with this time period?

Can, can this action work on a budget?

And does this studio make sense?

And ultimately, we decided to film in
Cape Town because it, the cost for a

month of filming there on a set, um,
that existed out in, uh, Banville,

I think, or something like that.

Um.

We it, the cost for a month of
that set was cheaper than a day

renting Capernaum Studios in Texas.

And so we that talk about leverage
and talk about figuring out how

to find, uh, ways to leverage
your film to get the next thing.

We learned a lot on that one.

I wasn't involved in the short film.

I came in after when we were doing
the feature, but he's, he's living

proof that these tips work and
help you move those things along.

So some stories or experiences for my own
life, I've never liked director's chairs.

They're always like, how do you sit in it?

How do you get comfortable?

Anyway, that's why I'm a producer.

I have a producer chair that I
bring my own chair and it's very

comfortable, like rocks back and
forth, like it's a whole thing.

Um, okay, so it's a couple experiences
of my own producing short films.

Honestly, the ones that gave me the
most leverage were not necessarily

the, the traditional short films that
you'd see at a film festival like this.

I had a lot more experience
doing music videos.

So I came up through post-production
sound and live sound.

So I toured with Neon
Trees and Imagine Dragons.

I ran sound at Vore for
10 years down in Provo.

I was like their head sound
guy for a decade, and I met

so many amazing people there.

And then during that time,
started getting into film.

So I started post-production
sound, and then I started writing

with my business partner, Alan.

And then I started filming and editing
and doing all the things because it

was just the two of us, this little
boutique film production company.

And so between the two of us, we
did probably a dozen short films

and worked with people, um, like
Imagine Dragons, like Neon Trees.

Um, we did a documentary for Neon
Trees that started out as a short

thing that we filmed in there.

You remember the old Hollywood
video that was by Smiths?

It doesn't exist anymore, but this
is, we're talking like 20 10, 20 11.

There was a Hollywood video
there that they rented out and

was like their practice studio.

And so we went over a day and filmed
a whole bunch of interviews and filmed

some B-roll and put it together.

And that kind of green lit the
documentary that we did for them.

It never ended up, uh, coming to life.

So you can't find it anywhere
online, unfortunately.

But music videos, um, I did music
videos for like Gentry and Faith

Marie and, uh, the Strike, a bunch
of local bands I worked with.

Um, there was a, a show called the
Occidental Saloon, which was made by,

uh, Matt, uh, Matt Easton, who's now
directing like all of Imagine Dragon's

music videos for the last 10 years.

He started and I was the sound person that
was recording the live sound on those.

As these little free acoustic music
videos he'd get Imagine Dragons.

Before they were big, before anyone
knew who they were, they were

playing at Valore down in Provo.

And it said, Hey, let's go out to a
barn in Payson and film an acoustic

version of its time or whatever.

And so we'd all go, they'd bring the
cameras, I'd bring the sound, we'd

record it, we'd do all the things.

And Matt turned that into a TV
show called Audio Files, which I

was then also the sound person on.

So the same thing applied in my own life.

I was producing and even directing a
couple of music videos for local bands.

And so like I did one for Gentry
and it was a Christmas themed,

like a Christmas time music video.

The thing did 200 million views
across YouTube and Facebook.

So you know whether the thing gets 10
views or 200 million views, it's the same

level of work for me as the filmmaker.

But I tried to align myself with people
that I already saw some trajectory on.

So we did music videos for them.

I did like three or four, uh, years
in a row, and their music videos

would do tens of millions of views.

So I could then put that on my
blog or my website and go, here's a

music video I produced and directed.

And then there it is.

It's got 200 million views on it.

So that's impressive.

Um, I did one for Faith Marie.

I did two of 'em, actually one in a
little indoor space, but I did one

that was, you know, the Heber, is
it Heber Midway that has the, the

water in like a little volcano thing?

What do you call that?

Midway?

Yeah, it's midway.

But what's what?

Homestead Grater.

Homestead Crater.

Thank you.

So we filmed it in there.

It was me, a camera and her, and a piano.

That was it.

And I filmed and edited the whole thing
myself, like direct it, produced, shot,

edited, do the whole thing, right?

Cost $0.

Maybe they paid me a thousand bucks
or something, just because I had to

drive out there and do the whole thing.

But that thing has now
done like 6 million views.

And I can say that was completely me.

So if I were today trying to
do cinematography or editing

or directing or producing, I
could say, look, here's a thing.

I did a hundred percent myself, shot it
in two hours, edited it in a week, and

here's what I could do for no budget.

Imagine if I had 10,000 or 50 or
a hundred thousand for a video.

They would look at the results and
go, that was a good video, and it had

six or 10 or a hundred million views.

And they go, yeah, I trust you.

So what's the lesson in there?

I think part of it is
what's, what's your takeaway?

But for me it was, I could do the
same video for someone who's just

starting out and may not be abandoned
in a year because they, they just

won like battle of the bands.

They're all gonna get married and
go off to, you know, move, move

away for different jobs and maybe
they won't be abandoned anymore.

But there were also bands like the
National Parks and Desert Noises and

Neon Trees and Imagine Dragons and
people that just had that feeling of

they're gonna be around for a long time.

You could tell even when they were a year
old as a band, this band is gonna do it.

And so I'd align myself with them and
go, I wanna kind of hitch myself to this

train and provide value as a filmmaker
and say, I'm gonna produce a music video

for you and then you're either gonna
pay me or I can use it to get another

project, another project, another project.

So part of it is thinking about
who you're partnering with.

Um, the other thing I wanted to
share, me check my time real quick.

Yeah, we still got great.

Um, the other thing that I experienced was
when I was working on the TV show, it was

a show called Relative Race for BYU tv.

And that was a great experience.

'cause as a producer I could get a lot
of reps doing 10 episodes a season.

You know, that's 10 complete
stories and 10 complete thoughts

that I had to produce every season.

And imagine doing 40 episodes or 40
feature films in a span of three years.

You can't do that.

But you can get your reps in as a
producer doing TV or doing short films

because they take, you know, for us it
was a day of filming per episode and

then about three to four months of post.

And I was able to edit because I had the
ability to edit as a producer or I had

the experience and the skill to do that.

So I got to see the full thing from
like the inception of the story in

my head of like, how's this play
gonna play out to filming it, to

editing it and getting it done.

So reps is a cool thing to think
about, but also during that

I was posting about it a lot.

So this is maybe a big takeaway for
everybody is the more you talk about

what you're doing, the more people
can see that you're up to something

and people like to partner with
people that are up to something.

You know, if you've, you've met people
here that are, you know, you've probably

seen 'em two or three years in a row
and they're still working on that one

project, and I still have that idea and.

They're still tinkering with it.

And you're like, okay,
cool man, good luck.

But then you meet people last year who
were like, I mean, uh, Graham, right?

Like I talked to Graham in October and
he's like, yeah, I've got this film that

I'm doing and I'm raising money right now.

And he was, he was like getting after it.

I just saw him this morning
and he's like, it's done.

It's in post.

Holy cow, dude, that's
not even six months.

So he's up to something, right?

Find the people who are up to something.

But as I was talking about and posting
about the work I was doing on relative

race, uh, contact a friend of mine
who had, um, been involved with us a

little bit as far as our production
company and in like sponsoring our

Patreon and some of the web series
and stuff we were doing, she calls

me up and says, Hey, I got this guy.

I wanna fund a uh, TV pilot, so
will you executive produce it?

We put it together.

I was like, yeah, absolutely.

So film an episode, film the
season in April, and then in May

we're shooting this TV pilot.

And it was because of these little things
that I was doing saying, look at the value

I'm creating over here for this TV show.

I could probably create similar value
for you over here with a TV pilot.

So it's a little bit of a jump or a
leap in trust from a TV show that's

existed for a couple of seasons, and
I'm just part of a big team to like, can

you do it a hundred percent yourself?

But it was enough for her to be like, I
wanna, I think you're the person for this.

So I did that.

Um, and then her business partner,
um, called me and said, Hey, I,

I saw the work you did on that.

I've got a documentary that
I'm doing here locally.

I need a producer.

Are you interested?

It's like, yeah, absolutely.

So over that summer between Seasons did a
documentary project with, um, Amy Redford,

who ended up calling me six months
later and said, Hey, I've got a feature.

I'd love for you to produce it.

I said, absolutely.

I'm, I'm in.

I don't care what the movie is.

I don't care where the
budget is, like I'm in.

But it was all these little steps,
these little progressive steps that

led from a TV show to a TV pilot,
to a documentary that had a decent

budget to producing my first feature.

Now, it took me, I talk about this a lot.

You may not have heard me talk
about it before, but it took me 12

years to produce my first feature.

That's too long.

I don't want it to take 12
years for anyone in this room.

Okay.

So the rest of the time we'll
talk about like how do we help you

make progress and move forward.

But I do wanna share this one principle.

I shared it last year in a
workshop that I did here at Ziff.

But the idea, and what I just kind of,
um, showed you with my own trajectory

was this idea of the domino principle.

You may have heard this before, but
the domino principle states that a

domino, like a two inch domino can,
if you have, if you knock it over,

it can knock a bigger domino up
to one and a half times its size.

So a two inch domino can
knock over a three inch or

whatever the math looks like.

And then a three inch can knock
over a five inch, we can knock,

knock over a eight and, and it
just keeps compounding, right?

But if you start, there's a video
online, um, where this scientist, this

like high school math teacher who's a
little pudgy and he's got like curly

hair and he's like super into science.

He's like, watch this.

And he takes a five millimeter tall
domino and he grabs it with a pair

of tweezers and he puts it down on
the ground in front of this ever

increasing one and a half times its
size and weight series of dominoes.

And by like the 13th domino,
it's a six foot tall domino

that weighs a hundred pounds.

And he starts with this little five
millimeter domino and he knocks it

over with the tweezers and it goes

and it knocks over the six foot tall a
hundred pound domino, which is insane to

think that from a five millimeter domino
that you couldn't even see from the room

back here, knocks over something that big.

And I love that analogy or that
principle for filmmaking because

wherever you're at right now, it
represents one of those dominoes between

five millimeters and six foot tall.

And maybe you're on the four and
a half foot tall domino that's 50

pounds or whatever the math is.

Maybe you're one domino away from that
big feature, the dream project that you're

going after, but maybe you're at the
five or seven or 10 millimeter domino.

And that's okay.

We all start with the
five millimeter domino.

We all start by getting our phone out
or a camera out and filming something

and go, Ooh, I think I like this.

I think, and I showed, I showed
that video to somebody and they

went, wow, that's really good.

Think that's one domino.

Okay, well let me string a couple
of shots together and add some music

to it and put it on social media.

Wow, we've got a couple likes.

It got some people commenting on it.

They said that was really good.

Think it's another domino.

And it just builds and builds and
builds as you build that momentum.

And so if you think about it that
way, you, it requires a couple

things from you as the filmmaker.

One is an understanding
of what domino are you at?

How big is it?

The next is where, what's the next one?

Because it would be really tragic if
you had like a two foot tall domino

and it just went to the ground and
there was no nothing to capture that

momentum and propel it to the next one.

So always be thinking about how
does this short film, how does

this project get me the next one?

And what is the momentum that I need
to carry into that one so that it

knocks the next one and the next one.

And then the third thing you need
is what's the, what's the six

foot tall, a hundred pound domino?

What is that for you in your career?

Is it a $2 million feature?

Is it a studio movie?

Is it directing for Netflix?

Is it, is it, is it whatever it is?

That might be the thing
that feels impossible.

'cause you're sitting at a one
inch tall domino and knocking

down a six foot tall one.

That feels impossible.

I know that feeling very well.

I sat there for 12 years going,
I'm doing everything I can.

Why isn't it working?

Well, it's because I didn't do this stuff.

I just told you.

I didn't realize I needed to
line up the next dominoes.

The momentum happened.

I didn't know that I needed to
have the big goal at the end.

And so it was almost like I was knocking
a domino this way and then trying

another one this way, and then trying
another one this way and going, why

isn't it knocking over that domino?

Well, if you look at it from
a scientific point of view,

you need that directionality.

It needs to all line up into one
series of ding, ding, ding, dinging.

Okay?

So that's what happened to me, and it
turned into the first feature, which

turned into the second feature, which
turned into the third and fourth.

So every, every project that
I've done from music video, 15,

20, whatever years ago, all the
way to now, has I could directly

apply that domino principle to it.

So wherever you're at in your filmmaking
career, think about what's the next

domino and what's the big one that you're
aiming for so that you can make sure

that every time you do a project, it
gives you that momentum in the next one.

Okay, so with the rest of the time
we have, I'd love to do q and a,

so we'd love, just because we
are filming and recording this.

We'd love for you to use
one of the microphones.

Um, I don't know if there's someone
that maybe wants to hand 'em around

or if you just wanna pass 'em around
between you, but there's one on each

side that we can use their wireless
microphones and we'll just do some q and

A until Michelle tells us we're done.

Tell me your name first.

Uh, yeah.

I'm Duke Con Williams.

I'm Duke.

Yes.

We met the other day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks for everything you shared first.

Of course.

Course is awesome.

And for including Garrett
when he couldn't be here.

You could've looked better
than him, but you didn't.

That was very sweet of you.

We put his, we put his face on the, yeah.

Yeah.

It was nice.

Um, so, so my question was, when you're
talking about the domino principle,

just so I understand the full principle,
could you share where you're at?

What is your six ton domino
you're trying to knock over?

And where in that journey
do you feel like you are.

Yeah, tha thank you for asking.

'cause now I get to talk about myself.

Um, so I, I've done four features
in the last like three years,

between 20 to 21, 20, 24.

I did four features and every single
one of them, um, I was a work for hire.

Like they, they had the money raised,
they had the project developed, they were

ready to go and they needed someone to
come in and produce it because now they

were gonna shift it to director mode.

And so I did that and I loved it.

And the projects I'm really proud of.

All the projects we did, um, three of
'em have been released in theaters.

The first one that we did with Amy
got went to the Toronto Film Fest

and got bought by IFC films and
had a small, like, weekend release.

And now you can watch it on Hulu,
like we did the whole thing, right.

So it's been an amazing journey, but I
realized along the way that there were

things that I would've done different.

And so I was just kind of taking
notes because I, I didn't wanna be

so arrogant as to think like, oh, I
should be making the decisions now.

'cause it was my first,
second, third feature.

Like, I didn't know anything.

By the time I was working with
Garrett, he'd already done

six movies and I'd done two.

So it's like, let me learn everything.

I can learn from everybody.

But by the time we got through, um, four
of them and then also releasing those

two movies last year, it's like, man,
I feel like if I had, um, more control

over the entire process, we could make it
more profitable, more streamlined, more

upside, more pro like, all those things.

So I started like two years ago, started
noodling with like, what would that

look like if I were to do, do it all?

If I were to basically become like
a mini studio as a single person.

Like what if I bootstrapped a studio
instead of going out and raising tens of

millions of dollars to start a studio?

What if I bootstrapped it, meaning
started with nothing and just used

the resources I had at my disposal.

So that led me to come up with
what I'm calling producer fund one.

So I'm raising a film fund
to do the next 10 movies.

And it's a $10 million fund.

So I'll do 10 movies in four
years, two to three a year.

They'll all be little indies
between one and $2 million.

But we're gonna handle everything
from development, financing,

pre-production, production,
post-production, marketing, distribution.

We're gonna handle the entire thing.

It'll start like, like
I said, bootstrapped.

I'm not gonna hire eight employees
to handle all those different things.

We'll contract people and we'll do it on
a contract basis until it's profitable

and then we'll bring people in house and
we'll build this thing from the ground up.

So I'm really, really, really like
inordinately excited about that.

'cause we have investors in already.

We're probably our first milestone
will be in the next month or so and

I can start greenlighting projects.

So that's kind of my next thing.

I don't know what the
big, you said six ton.

I was just thinking six foot, like
you're thinking way bigger than I am.

I don't have aspirations
to do the studio system.

I really like, our podcast
is called Truly Independent.

That was a phrase I came up with a year
or two ago and I was like, Garrett, this

should, this is what this name is for.

I don't know why I was hanging
onto it using it all the time, but

that, that, this is why, because
we need to be truly independent.

We need to figure out how to do that.

So we're not waiting for permission.

So we're not waiting for a green
light or a gatekeeper to say,

yes, we can just do it ourselves.

And that's why we have the podcast
and why I'm writing about all this

stuff in books and blog and podcasts.

Because if I can share everything I'm
learning along the way, then it means

that everybody else who's paying attention
can also apply the same lessons and

hopefully truly independent becomes even
bigger than the studio system, right?

I don't care if it does, but it has a
chance of like somebody overseas could

read the book or listen to the podcast and
go, oh, I think I could try that myself.

And now they're thinking about
greenlighting themselves instead

of waiting for permission.

Thank you, Darren.

You thank you.

I've been blessed by it.

Thank you.

Well, thank you.

Let's get Doug over there.

Doug, I love your short film.

Oh, that's, that's so nice.

John, are the planes.

Who else saw that?

Was that Tuesday?

Yeah, half the ring.

Dude.

Great job.

Really good.

That's very humbling.

Thank you.

Thanks for doing this, Darren.

Yeah, I mean, it is really fantastic.

I wish Garrett were here, uh, as well,
but, uh, you've done a great job solo.

Thank you.

Um, so I love this, uh, this domino
analogy that you were talking about, and,

um, the only problem is I, I know what, I
know what the six foot domino is, right?

Um, but I'm not sure what
the dominoes in between say,

daughter of the Plains mm-hmm.

And the six foot Domino is, uh, you
know, I mean, it would seem to be, you

know, make more movies shorter, long,
but, uh, you know, is it that simple or,

uh, what, what are the next steps for,
you know, um, a project like ours or,

you know, like many of, uh, the others
for people who have maybe two shorts

out there or, um, uh, or what have you.

Yeah, I think there's
two ways to look at it.

Um, and I'm, I'm glad that
you're already kind of in the

mindset of what do we do next?

Like instead of waiting for.

How does this turn into this
external, to me it's like,

how do we turn this into that?

Right?

That's a very small shift in words,
but it means that you're thinking

internally and taking the responsibility
on yourself rather than who's

gonna green light my next thing?

Right.

That's big.

So, um, two things.

The first is understanding
like what is the six foot thing

and what needs to come right.

Before that, you kind of reverse engineer
what the next domino is in order to

find out how many dominoes away you are.

And you may or may not be right.

Maybe you're five away,
maybe you're two away.

It's really hard to under,
hard to know for sure.

This isn't science, this is art still.

And so there's nothing that says
if as soon as you've done three

short films, now you get to do a
feature that that doesn't exist.

Right.

We all wish that were the case, but I
mean, I met a kid, I did a, a workshop or

a, a guest lecture at UVUA few weeks ago.

There's a kid in this class
that had done 52 short projects.

It's like, holy cow.

And he's just getting his
experience and getting his reps in.

But I'm like, you're definitely ready
to do whatever the next big thing.

Like you've, you've earned it, right?

So it's, it's twofold.

One is you've gotta put that out into
the world as much as possible because

that's where serendipity or grace or luck
or whatever it is that you call it, I

like to call it grace, comes into play.

Right?

Um, short example, I was posting
a picture every day from set

on the second movie I did.

It was a movie we shot here in
Utah called, give Me Your Eyes

with Gary and Julie Arbaugh.

And I was just posting a picture
from set every day, basically showing

people online look at the value I'm
managing or creating for other people.

I've got a crew of 30, 40 people.

I've got these big cameras,
I've got all these heaters.

'cause we're filming in Provo Canyon
and three degrees at night in February.

Why?

Because it's, that's where it takes place.

But I'm going look at this value
I'm creating on this project.

And I'm doing it every
single day for 30, 40 days.

And a week after that, Garrett called
me up and said, Hey, you've been

doing a lot of producing lately.

Yes I have.

Right?

At least it looks that way.

And that's when he called
and he said, I got a project.

I said, yes, whatever it is.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Right.

I didn't know it was the carpenter.

I just said yes.

And because I wanted to work with Garrett.

But part of that was because I
was taking on myself to make sure

that what I was doing was getting
as much exposure as possible.

And even though I was working 16 hour
days as a producer, I would still take

the time to take a, take a really nice
photo, put a caption on there, and like

shine the light on the cinematographer
or the hairdresser or the costumer

or the transpo people or whatever
to say, I'm, I've got amazing crew.

I'm managing all of this.

They all like me 'cause they're
letting me take their picture.

Like all that subtext is part of that.

So is Jade's not here?

Is she, Jade did an amazing
job on that for you because

she was just posting every day.

Here's the thing, here's
behind the scenes clip.

Jade's really good, probably
better than I am 'cause she's

doing like edited videos every day.

I'm doing a black and white
photo that took me four seconds

to oh, got one for today.

Right.

So a lot of awareness because you
never know what's gonna happen.

Me posting 40 pictures on the internet
led to two movies with Garrett Batty.

Yes.

There's a lot of other things like
I needed to be showing the kind of

value that he was already looking
for and have that connection

from years before and, and, and.

But you'll never know what opportunities
can pop up unless you're doing that.

So the awareness piece of, you
gotta be posting about your project

every day somehow really important.

So for you it is, how many other
festivals have you applied to?

Can you get it into another
five or 10 festivals and get.

Hundreds of people every single
time to go see it and talk

about it, write up about it.

Who knows?

Maybe at the Nebraska Film Festival
you're gonna meet somebody that

like really resonated, is looking
for someone to direct a feature.

You never know.

I don't wanna put that in your mind
of like, that's the, that's the path.

'cause you never know,
serendipity, grace, luck.

It pops up when you least expect
it, but it's because you've been

doing all those things to be in
a place where you can receive it.

Um, the second is being, uh,
really, um, specific about

the goals that you're after.

So what's the sixth?

Um, I was doing this like, what's
the six foot hundred pound domino?

And like I was saying earlier,
just reverse engineering.

So in order for me to do that, what
kind of value do you need to show people

that you're capable of creating for
them to trust you to do the next domino?

That's kind of what the
momentum looks like.

So doing a short film that's, you know.

I, I don't wanna throw budgets out in
the world, in the, in the air, 'cause

I don't know what the budget was
for you, but like, you know what, it

was jumping from a, this isn't, this
isn't specific to your project, but

a one or five or $10,000 short film
to a one or $2 million feature film.

That's the one inch domino of
the six foot domino, right?

That's too big of a gap.

So what kind of value do you need
to create for the people who have

the demand for a screenwriter,
a director, a producer, an actor

to, to come to the next domino?

That's what you gotta be thinking about.

Hopefully that makes sense.

I haven't phrased it that way before,
but like, know what the end goal

is and then reverse engineer it
to say, okay, what's 80% of that?

What's 80% of that?

What's 80% of that?

And at some point you'll be like,
oh, that's where I'm at right now.

And it, it's not just budget wise.

I, I like to think of it in
terms of value and demand.

So what's the value that you're
supplying to the industry and what

demand already exists in the industry?

Because all of us, how many
have multiple ideas for projects

in your brain right now?

If someone said, I have money, you
could, you could supply it, right?

We have an oversupply of ideas
and creative projects in this

room, and so does every other
film festival in the entire world.

There's oversupply.

So what we need to understand is what
demand already exists and seeking that

out and then understanding, okay, what
is it that they're actually looking for?

Because there are certainly have been
filmmakers who have, you know, been

brought to that next domino because
this, some person added their momentum

to the momentum that they were knocking
over with their domino, their short film

that said, oh, you're ready for this.

Or like a production designer on a
feature or a studio movie that then

gets to direct the next one, even though
they haven't really directed before.

'cause the studio is going, we're
gonna add our momentum to this

to bring you to that next one.

So really thinking of very intentionally,
like what that looks like for me is

sitting down with a two hour block of
time that's uninterrupted phone off door

closed, no kids are running into the
thing, into my office and putting on

some music and just getting into a zone
where I can really think about what is

the next thing, what's the big thing?

And then free writing, like
what does it look like?

Describe it in super detail.

Oh, in order for that to
happen, this has to happen.

Oh, let me do some budgets,
let me do some diagrams.

Like I have notebooks full,
full of those kind of sessions.

So I just sit down and I think
about it and I let you know

the, the grace of that moment.

Show up and give me some extra
momentum too, because yeah,

my thoughts are great, but.

There's other, you know,
we're at Ziff, right?

So God has a bigger plan and a bigger
vision of your life than you do.

And so if you tap into that when
you're doing those planning sessions,

that's where the magic happens in, at
least in my life, where I go, oh, I

didn't even think about a film fund.

That's a big idea.

Maybe I should write some
more and figure it out.

Okay.

Sorry, that was a super long answer.

I wanna get to other questions.

We still have like 15 minutes, so Graham.

Yeah.

Microphone.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

Um, so when you go to film festivals
and you meet with other creatives and

whatnot, it's, it's usually, um, you
usually find that, I'm speaking in

generalities here, but you usually find
writer, producer, directors in one, right?

Yeah.

Or you find, uh, directors
or you find writers.

You rarely find.

Producers by themselves, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and usually that the writer,
producer, directors would rather

be writer directors and tack on
producing because they have to.

Yeah.

Right.

So what is the appeal for becoming a
producer of independent films, and how

do you convince yourself or others to
become producers of, of independent

films so that, you know, the, the
writers and directors can be matched up

with, with people who just produce or,
you know, I, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

That's a really cool question.

Um, I consider myself a producer writer,
so I don't know that I'm like the perfect

example of what you're talking about, but
I certainly know what you're getting at.

Every project needs momentum, right?

This is domino theory, again, in practice.

So every project needs momentum
if it's gonna get anywhere.

And so a lot of times what happens
just by the natural state of things

is someone has an idea that they wanna
produce, whether they're an actor or

writer or director, and they go, well,
I can sit here and wait for a producer

to show up, or I can keep going to
festivals or keep DMing people online.

But there's not enough demand from the
producer to say, yes, I want to invest

my time, energy, money, attention
into this project for you to have

the momentum you need to get it made.

And so that's where a lot of people
sit is they go, well, I'm a writer

director, or I'm a director, I'm an
actor, and nobody's saying yes to me.

There's not enough demand for the
oversupply that I have of good ideas.

So they tack on the producer title
because they need the momentum.

I was sitting here with an
actor friend Tuesday night.

We were sitting, sitting on a bench out
there and I said, what are you up to?

And he's like, ah, it's been pretty slow.

I was like, I.

Well, what do you wanna do?

Like you're a really talented actor.

What do you wanna do next?

Like, what's a scene or a
character or a shot that like,

just has, has you obsessed?

He's like, oh, I dunno that
I've ever thought about that.

It's like, well, what if you
kind of look at what actors

do when they get big, right?

They, they have a big blockbuster movie,
or they get into the studio system.

Margot Robbie and Ryan Reynolds
come to mind of like, they're

people who have created their own
production companies to say, I'm

only doing the projects I wanna do.

So Margot Robbie says, I wanna do Barbie.

She goes and acquires the rights to it,
talks to Warner, uh, Warner Brothers

talks to um, Mattel and puts it together.

And then she gets to choose the
writer director, Greta Gerwig.

She gets to be the lead.

She gets to cast people like she's
in charge because she said, I'm

the momentum for this project.

Well, why not do that right now?

Like, maybe you just finished a
feature or a short film as an actor.

Why not just do that earlier?

Where you're saying, here's the
next thing I wanna do as an actor.

I guarantee if an actor here at the
festival who had a project started

talking to everybody and said,
oh, you directed that short film.

I would love to talk about
doing something together.

Maybe it's a day shoot, or maybe
it's something, but like let's

get a couple of people together.

Like you could definitely do
that, but it's the producer that

has the momentum a lot of times.

So whether it's the writer, director
or the actor or whoever, you have

to have that element in play.

But I think it come, to answer your
question maybe deeper, is to say, it goes

back to that idea of supply and demand.

And I always try to talk in terms
of like business to filmmakers

and creatives, because that's the
part we're always struggling with.

That's what this book is about.

Like that's, that's what I
feel is the most valuable thing

I can put out in the world.

Sitting on a stage with a microphone
is like helping you think about

how business actually works.

'cause you are a business, whether
you're a solo writer, director, producer.

For a cinematographer or an actor
or an editor, you are a business

and supply and demand is very basic,
like economics 1 0 1 type stuff.

But we need to put it into
terms we can understand.

So it's understanding that there are
producers out there who have a demand

for things and seeking out where the
demand is, and then seeing how you

can fill that with your projects.

So I don't remember if the question
was like, how do you connect with

them or like why they don't exist.

But I think it's because we're
often thinking about permission

rather than partnership.

So if you're partnering with the producer,
you're saying, I have the thing that

you want and you have the thing that I
want, so let's come together and partner.

And that's what me and Garrett was, right?

Yes.

I got paid a producer fee.

But ultimately, before any of
that was discussed, it was, here's

a project I'm gonna do next.

Do you want to be a part of it?

Because I want your producing skill
and you want a good project to attach

your name to great partnership success.

So it's thinking in terms of what's the
supply and demand balance on either side.

And something else to think about is
somebody woke up today with an abundance

of the thing that you lack, whether that's
money, time, equipment, pretty face that

can be on camera, whatever it is, right?

Someone woke up today with an abundance
of the thing you lack, which also means

that you woke up today with an abundance
of something someone else lacks.

And you gotta think about that in terms
of the value you already have, not

just in yourself and inherently, but
like with the projects you're creating.

And then it becomes about seeking
out who already has the demand for

that, rather than will somebody please
take a look at my project, please.

And then you're barking up a thousand
trees that never will get anywhere.

Did that answer your question?

Okay, got I can, I can talk,
I can get the weeds on stuff.

Okay.

Other questions?

Yeah, down here and then there.

I think these are gonna be the last
two and I'll, Michelle, I'll keep

my answers to like two minutes.

I know you need the ruin.

Hi Darien.

My name's Spencer White.

We talked Spencer.

Hey man.

Yeah.

How's it going to see you again?

Same.

Um, so going off of this domino
analogy that we've been talking about.

Yeah.

So if you have dominoes in
their angle a little wrong,

then it can stop that momentum.

What would you say are some pitfalls
you've seen from the industry and

people around you that stopped that
momentum and the domino effect?

That's a good question.

I think you can prevent it.

By lining up the domino before you knock
over the next, the first one, right?

So you're constantly playing
this game of what's next?

What's in, what's in the
trajectory of this domino?

And if it looks like it's gonna fall a
little off, then it's like, well, how

do we shift that thing to get into the
line, into the trajectory of the domino

that's currently got some momentum?

So like the ideas that come to mind for me
are like starting a movie, green lighting

a movie, and you have that momentum
of, okay, we're going into production

and then there's no distribution plan.

To me, that's a huge domino that should
be right next to it, but it's often not.

And yet, for my film fund, for example,
I have, I have distribution in foreign

sales and digital sales lined up before
the movies have even been chosen.

Like before I even have all the
money, I'm, I'm lining up that

distribution domino right now.

I.

Because I know that that has to be in
place, a for the momentum to go, right?

A lot of people look at a domino from
the outside and they go, well, that's

a great domino you're about to knock
over, but there's nothing after it.

It's like, okay, I love this.

Uh, there was a friend of mine
who said that investors like

to invest in lines, not dots.

So putting it into this context of the
domino theory, people like to invest in a

line of dominoes so they can see, oh, this
is the two inch one, but I could see the

six foot one, and that's exciting to me.

So I'm gonna come in now.

I've had an investor
tell me that exact thing.

I see where you're at now and
I see where you're going, and

I wanna be on that journey.

So I'm investing now, even though it's
riskier than investing 10 years from now.

Awesome.

Come on in.

Right?

So it's thinking about how if, if,
uh, a domino is already falling,

if you're getting some momentum
somewhere, you better hurry and make

sure that that next domino is lined up.

I don't think it's a fixed state thing.

I don't think it's like, oh
shoot, this Domino's falling

and that one's over there.

I'm screwed.

And the momentum's gonna be gone.

I think at until the very last
second, you can move this domino over.

And honestly, you could probably even
pick the one up that just fell and just

put another one there and go, okay, think
and like pick it up where I came from.

That's how I like to think
about it visually at least.

So you can always kind of adjust or
nudge or push the next domino into place.

So it's gonna fall what you need to.

Yeah.

Helpful.

Thank you.

Okay.

And then right here, that'll
be our last one, I think.

Uh, thank you.

I've loved everything you've said so far.

Um, thanks.

Tell me your name real quick.

Uh, sorry.

Wo Donnelly.

Awesome.

And uh, actually I think
we've met on Zoom once.

Oh, nice.

Nice.

A job.

I'll tell you about it later.

But, um, I was wondering, do you
see yourself sticking to Utah or

is your vision bigger, growing this
truly independent to the nation?

Eventually international.

What's your.

I guess, yeah.

Bigger.

Yeah, Cape Town.

Cape Town wrecked me, man.

Like it is so awesome out there.

It's beautiful.

Everything that we shot in the
carpenter is within an hour radius,

so like mountains and beach and sets
and studios like it was all there.

And bigger tax anden, like
it was a 35% tax incentive.

Instead of 20 or 25% year, we had 120
person crew on a budget that would've

got us a 35 to 40 person crew here.

So the facilities, the equipment,
the amount of time, like we were

able to shoot 26 days, it would've
been like a 15 to 17 day shoot here.

Like just everything was bigger
and better because of the exchange

rate, because of just the way it is.

And so, man, I like, it's hard
because I love Utah and I want

to support and build Utah.

But there's also the business reality
that I have to be cognizant of because

I'm now a steward of people's money and
I have to make good investment decisions.

So if I'm looking at a project and going,
well, this is gonna be shot on a stage.

Stages are the same everywhere.

Like it doesn't matter where you
film it, sorry, Michelle players.

Uh, but like, if, if I can do it
here, I want to, because I live

here, I can go home every night.

You know, I've worked at the stages
and I love the stage and I love

Marshall, and I love the people
there, and I love the crew here.

But as a executive producer making
financial decisions for a film fund,

I need to be thinking about, well, if
it's 40% over there, or 40 plus 10 plus

five because of whatever it is in Canada
or Australia or London or Italy or

South Africa, I have to consider those.

And then it's on me to say, okay, if I
really wanna shoot in Utah, I've gotta

exert the leverage that I have to say,
look, here's the reality of filming there.

So I need.

Whatever I need to make it worthwhile.

And so I can't say for certain that every
project we do will be shot here in Utah.

I would love for that to be the case, but
I think legislature and film incentive has

to come up to be competitive with else.

What else, what else
is out there right now?

Other than that, I love the
crews, love the locations.

Love the love filming here.

Uh, it's just gonna be hard financially
to blanket statements say yes on

filming every project in Utah.

Follow up questions.

Just kidding.

No, I have, I have a question.

Okay.

I think we're at time.

Thank you all so much.

Please, uh, do us a favor,
share the photos online.

I have a question for you.

Oh, you're gonna Oh, you do it.

You're, you're not gonna
shut me down right now.

Um, and actually it's not about I under,
I understand the business of making film.

Absolutely.

And that's, and I appreciate you.

Um, doing that.

And I think that, uh, candlelight
media group, they show Yeah.

That, that, you know, case that
you're, that you're pointing.

My question to you is, if I'm putting
on my marketing hat, and that's

what's, that's the sandbox that I plan.

There's so many times where
filmmakers will come to me and

they finished a project mm-hmm.

And they're like, what do I do with it?

And I don't feel like there's enough
conversation that happens in the

writing stage, the pre-production stage.

So what would you say about knowing the
audience that you're marketing to, not

just distribution, that's, that's its
own conversation, but the, the marketing

aspect of your film, and then Yeah.

In the very first conversation between
a writer, director, and a producer,

whether that's two people or three
people or whatever, you should also

add a marketer, like in the very first
conversation of what this project is.

And that marketing lead is as
essential as the producer, as

the director, as the lead actor.

That's my opinion about marketing.

Like it has to start day one and
before you go into development

or part of development needs
to be, what is the poster?

Who is the audience for this thing?

What is the hook that's gonna
get them to follow along and have

demand for this product that we're
selling a year and a half from now?

Because if you show up two weeks out
from theatrical release and you're self

releasing on 20 screens and you haven't
been talking about your movie for the

last year and a half, you missed all
the free marketing that you get to do.

'cause now you have to buy
people's attention by running

ads and buying billboards and
radio spots and whatever it is.

And that costs a lot of money.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Like if you're making a million dollar
movie, your marketing budget should be

half of that, like 500 k spent, spread
over a year and a half to acquire

the audience that's gonna show up
opening weekend and sell that out and

bring their friends and their family.

So marketing is day one with script
financing team key, key crew people.

Marketing has to be part of
that conversation and if that,

that will help you so many ways.

It'll help you understand who
the audience is and you can

start talking to them today.

Hey, here's a picture of us with this
project that we just greenlit ourselves.

We don't have financing yet,
but we green lit it ourselves.

This is our next project.

I only got four or five people
posting about it every day online.

And whether it's 500 or 500,000
people that that audience reaches.

Well, guess what?

Now you're gonna add an actor and they
have 10,000 followers or a hundred

thousand followers, and you're gonna add
a key grip who has 400 followers, and

now you're gonna add, add, act, right?

So as the crew comes along, they're
your marketing team for free.

And my goodness, you would know better
than me, but I don't understand the whole,

like, don't post about this movie online.

We're filming it.

Why wouldn't you?

Oh my goodness.

You got a hundred people there that
could be posting about it every day.

'cause they're working on it.

And that's tens of thousands
of impressions and engagements.

And you give everybody a very simple
call to action to put in their

bio or at the end of every post,
they'll follow along@xyzlee.com.

And now you're building an email
list and you're building awareness.

You're capturing people's zip codes
and you're saying, I mean, my goodness,

that's why we did the podcast.

And when we launched theatrical, we
sent out an email saying, let us know

where you want us to put the movie.

And then that all funneled to
birdie distribution and helped us

with what theaters we need to book.

Because we have the audience
already to know where the demand

was, so we could fill that.

Okay.

This is a hor like ahor.

I could get on that soapbox
for an entire episode.

I probably have, but
targeting me is essential.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So is pr.

It's part of marketing.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you all so much.

Subscribe to Truly Independent.

Come find me.

I'll be in the lobby afterwards for a few
hours, or if you have other questions.

Thank you for watching, for listening.

Thanks for having us, for having
me and Garrett and Spirit.

Um, this is very cool that you
guys put on a festival where

things like this could happen.

So thank you all so much.