Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Hey man, how's it going?

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Hello, Darren.

It's going very well.

Nice to see you.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: You too.

I'm doing for those who are
listening and not watching.

I'm doing my yoga stretches that
I do at the beginning of every

episode because this is a big one.

We got, we got a good one today for
the listeners, But hey man, we're gonna

do, we're gonna do a cool episode today
and give people an update on Faith of

Angels 'cause we are getting inundated.

I mean, for me it's multiple
times a week for you.

I imagine it's multiple times a day
of where can I watch Faith of Angels?

Where can I, is it on DVD?

Is it on streaming?

Where can I watch it?

I want to watch the movie.

And so we're gonna give a little update
on how things are going with post

theatrical release of Faith of Angels,
and maybe we kick off with, you had

a cool event so tell us about that.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: I do
and, and hopefully, again, this won't

be, I mean this will be about Faith
Angels, but in the, just the general

context of the podcast to say, Hey,
for every independent filmmaker, you've

gotta eventually release your film.

And so hopefully us sharing this
kind of update on where we are as

far as releasing this, this is a
pattern I think a lot of people could

have access to or could duplicate.

and so hopefully this would be
very helpful and not just to talk

about one specific movie, but yes.

So Faith of Angels right now
is available on a few streaming

platforms, just very kind of direct
to audience streaming platforms.

One of which being Angel Studios.

So they invited us to come
down for a live stream.

to do an hour long show about kind
of behind the scenes faith of angels.

And we had some of the cast, we
had John Michael Finley with us and

Curry Hayburn and Michael Bradford.

And then also Joshua Dennis, on
whom the story is based was with us.

so we went to their little
studio down in Provo and.

Sat with them.

I think John called in from, from
his home back on the east coast.

but yeah, we chatted, chatted about the
movie and I think it went really well.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
That's awesome.

So we should let people know too
that the film's been on Angel's

streaming platform since February 11th.

and it's.

Doing well.

I, I don't know actual numbers.

You probably have a better
insight into that, but it, from

what I gather, many people have
watched it on, on angel streaming.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Yeah, I mean they, we, they have

a, just a kind of a weekly, well,
they don't have a weekly report.

There is a report that is available and
it tells us we've got three kind of three

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: I.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
There's the feature that's with

them, the trailer and the first.

minutes of the film or 18 minutes of
the film, kind of a sneak peek look.

And obviously the more you know, if
you have a series with them, that's

also going to be in that report.

So, you know, it might be smart
for us to cut together a behind

the scenes thing and 20 minutes of
behind the scenes footage up there.

'cause that would also go
to our minutes streamed.

Relating to this title, then yeah, I,
I can just log on and well, I don't

log on whatever the link is that they
sent me, the viewers or I guess how

many views three items are getting,
you know, and we're in six weeks, we're

at 260 plus thousand which is great.

They've got 1 million subscribers.

So if a quarter of their
subscribers have watched.

sort of faith of angels element.

That's a pretty good, that's
a pretty good ratio to get.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: yeah.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
That's big deal.

So let's talk a little bit
about maybe higher level making

the choice of what types of
platforms to release your film on.

Because typically what filmmakers will
do is they'll, they'll go and do like

the, the rentals and the purchases
and the physical media first as a

window before it goes to streaming.

So I know that part of the deal
of us releasing on these platforms

was there was demand there.

You know, they're, they're
approaching us and saying, we

want your movie on this platform.

And so that's probably part of
the decision making process.

But for you thinking about, okay, what
are the windows for this film and how are

we gonna parse this out over the next.

However many months.

How did you come to the decision of,
yeah, let's do streaming with Angel

first before, 'cause we don't have
physical media out, we don't have it on

iTunes or Amazon to purchase or rent.

So maybe talk to the audience about that.

I.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
it's all theories stuff for me right

now, Darren, but it's, think that
there's reason to believe that in,

in the past we used to kind of, we
would window it out per format, right?

We say we're gonna release on DVD and
a home video, or I guess a home video.

We're in a DVD and Blu-ray, first
we'll do theatrical and all the people,

every, we're doing nationwide theatrical
and everybody can go see it, right?

For an independent film that
is not a typical scenario.

you're finding niche audiences theatrical.

We're gonna release to this
particular audience theatrically.

Great.

So they get to go see it.

That is their viewing habit
and they get to go see it.

A lot of times those audiences
aren't the ones that are.

Streaming it on or, or any other platform
that they subscribe to for a niche

title for, for an independent title.

So we did our theatrical run.

Great.

That that created an incredible awareness.

And now when we go to independent
distributors like Angel Studios or

Living Scriptures or whatever else other
independent distributor is streamer,

we're releasing to their audience.

Non exclusively, right?

They control their audience.

And until I control a million
people audience, then, you know

then I, that's when I'll release
it to my audience specifically.

right now Angel controls a million people.

Audience, they get to, to their
audience and they know how to

advertise and talk to that audience.

Living scriptures did the same thing, so I
don't know if I'm answering your question.

We went to those platforms
because they came to us.

They offered support with with funding
and advertising opportunities, and they

were, they were very attractive to us.

That's significant for an independent
film, creating that type of

awareness, you, you need a partner
to do that with An angel is in

an incredible partner to do that.

I had a meeting a week or two
ago with Living Scriptures.

Same thing.

They're saying, look, this
is the number two movie right

now on their entire platform.

They released it in November
and it's still just generating.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: their
audience is, they're continuing to see it.

And living Scriptures is advertising
directly to their audience.

Receiving the benefits for that.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: So if
I'm kind of trying to analyze why you

made the decision, it seems like free
marketing, you know, like we've we're

going into other windows of international
distribution and sales as well as.

You know, we'll have it on
DVD and on available for

purchase in the coming months.

But imagine the cost of an 80 million
impression ad campaign coming from us.

I.

Like that's, I know what those
numbers look like, and that's a

lot of money that it would cost
us, and we're getting it for free.

We're getting free marketing to not
just angel subscribers, but like angels

putting it on Facebook and online and
they're running ad money behind it.

And so all of a sudden there's this,
and I can speak to the, this is just

like my experience, but the uptick in
requests of where can I watch it or

when is it coming out on DVD definitely
picked up over the last month as the

marketing campaigns from Angel and
Living Scriptures have picked up.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Right, right, right.

And that was, that was fascinating to
me because again, with previous titles

typically were very, very protective, or
the distributor's very protective of that.

When I walked into Angel Studios
last night, and you know, Jeff Harmon

and Jordan Harmon, who both, I mean,
they, that's President, CEO of Angel

Studios, short of ne Neil Harmon.

You know, and they both pull me
aside and say, Hey man, your title

is doing incredibly well here.

Like, surprisingly well.

We think it's an evergreen title.

How are your other sales doing?

How are your online sales going?

And I had to sit there and think, never
does a distributor, you know, reach out

and say, how are your other channels?

They're, they're usually
saying, let's protect this.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: this.

You know, don't release on DVD yet.

Whatever.

And, and they were, and I, and I kind
of sheepishly said, well, we're still

looking at getting it up on iTunes
and Amazon or apple TV and Amazon,

and they were just kind of blown away.

Like, you got to get it out there.

They, and they told me anecdotally,
they said one of their titles, the last

Rifleman, Samuel Golden, released this
movie a while ago starting Pierce Brosnan.

They released it a while ago.

Now they've put it on.

Angel.

Has streamed it to their.

Guild members they said, look,
when we released last Rifleman si.

Golden reached out and said,
our online sales from other

platforms have done better.

That since it's like,
then, how do I phrase this?

we released this only years ago online,
we got a certain amount of sales now

that we've put on Angel, we've done more.

In this month than we did when
we initially released the movie.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Wow.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Does that make

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
I mean, that's high praise.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
I really kind of jumbled

that whole explanation.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
That's okay.

I think we got the gist, which is
they're putting a lot of money into

marketing the titles that are available
on streaming, and they're incentivized

to do it right now because even though
it's not an exclusive window for

Angel, we don't have it elsewhere.

So they know that they're gonna
get the lion's share of the

marketing spend coming back to them.

Because they're growing and
they have awareness for their

platform and stuff as well.

So, another question or a follow on
question is, you know, I shared a, a

link with you to a YouTube video from an
interview like two, maybe three years ago

of a filmmaker who self-released their
films and, and or self-released a film

and did seven figures in revenue and.

Lamented the fact that they were
doing really well on just renting

and purchasing the movie, like
selling direct to the audience.

Well, I shouldn't say direct,
but through a platform, like

they would have it on Amazon or
iTunes for rental or for purchase.

And they were, they were even able to
make a an ad campaign where they could

spend a thousand dollars and make 7,000.

It's like, man, I would
do that all day long.

I'd go borrow money to,
to put into that funnel.

Right.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
And so, but then they talked about

how they released it on streaming.

On Prime and Netflix, and the
model is now, you know, you're

getting paid cents per stream,
like three, 4 cents per stream.

Not per minute, per hour,
per, like, per stream.

So like that's an episode
topic for another day.

But I've, I'm becoming a staunch
advocate for indie filmmakers

to say, don't ever do that.

Like, ever, ever.

Not even as like a last window,
unless you've got another movie

coming out and you want to give.

Prime or Netflix, a three
month window to do that.

But we don't have that kind of leverage
to say, Hey Netflix, we're gonna

give this to you and then we're gonna
pull it for three months just to get

awareness for our MO next movie that's
coming out like a sequel or something.

So.

Again, I don't want this to be a marketing
episode for Angel, but like, are the

models that we're, we're currently
working with, with Angel and with living

scriptures, are they different enough
to say, oh, this is actually gonna

be profitable for indie filmmakers?

And not just a way to say we
got lots of views but no money.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: I
won't with Jeff and, and Jordan last

night talking a little bit about.

The, the revenue that comes
in, can say yes, I can say yes

based on what they've told me.

end of the quarter is the end
of March, and we'll receive

a check in 45 days from that.

there's reason to breathe easy and
have hope that indie filmmaking is

still very much alive and profitable.

so I, so.

Again, that, who knows?

Ask me again in May 15th

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: We will,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Yeah, I'm

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: I'll,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Tune in again.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: I'm it
in my calendar, ask Garrett about money.

But yeah, I think,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
text from Darren

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: yeah,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
morning,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
today's the day.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
just to hear them again.

I mean, yes, they're gonna tout their
own platform, which is great, but for

them then to acknowledge and say, look.

about their audience.

Like they have an audience,
they've built an audience, they

want to feed that audience.

not, they're not, it's not the film,
it's not, you know, I don't know.

There's still lots of process, but that
old vernacular, like content is king.

There's truth to that, audience
is kind of the target as far as

what Angel Studios is building.

They're saying we can
build an amazing audience.

Yes.

Because we have good content and
we're gonna curate, we're gonna use

our audience to curate good content.

don't think the Angels is the
only people that are doing that.

Right?

So, Darren, I mean, you're building
an audience for your, through your

book sales and everything like that,
and we start to know whether you have

a thousand or 3000 or 10,000 people
list your book is going to have a,

a positive impact on my business.

And so I'm going to become your audience.

And you know that when you,
whenever we, whenever Darren

releases a book, we better, better.

We're gonna pay, wanna pay
attention to that, right?

And so you, you're building this
on the content is good, but at some

point you've got to provide your
audience with additional things.

And it might not be your next
book, but it might be, you know,

a friend's book or whatever it's,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
or whatever.

It's.

So there's content, yes, but it's
your audience that trusts you.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

What's great is, you know, they
have an audience that is exactly

the audience we want to align with
for this movie, for example, right?

Trying to release it
on any other streamer.

You know, what, what kind of
movies does Paramount Plus do?

What kind of movies does Peacock do?

What kind of movies does Netflix do?

All of them, right?

Whereas this one is faith-based, family
friendly, values-based, you know, stuff

that you can watch with your, your kids.

And so that alignment alone, I think
is part of what's playing into the

success that the, the film that the
title is having, having on the platform.

It'll be interesting to see how
it plays out as we release on

other platforms and other mediums.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: yes.

And as an independent filmmaker,
I think you should remember that.

No platform has 100% of your
audience e even Netflix.

You know, the, if the, if the Golden
Goose is to get Netflix to take your

movie and you say, you know what?

No, Netflix does not have a
100% your film's audience.

And so, I would discourage anybody from
going totally exclusive anybody and say,

look, we will take it to your audience.

Great.

But I'm gonna go find an audience out in.

Southern Florida where there's,
they're, you know, they've got whatever,

300,000 viewers and they want content.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

Yep.

It's pretty amazing, and I think you saw
some of that as well at NRB where you're

going, wow, here's pockets of audiences.

Here are different groups that
have audiences of tens of thousands

or hundreds of thousands of
people that also want this thing.

They want media that they
can watch with their family.

Whether you're a faith-based filmmaker,
filmmaker, or a horror filmmaker or a

drama filmmaker, it doesn't really matter.

I think this principle applies.

You've gotta figure out where is your
audience and how do you speak to them

in a way where they can instantly
go, this project, this film aligns

with my values, and so I'm gonna
invest my time and attention and my

money into being able to watch that.

Right.

That's what we're ultimately
talking about is commerce.

Like how do you meet the demand
that's already in the marketplace?

Well, you could say, I released my film.

Then hope that those people show up.

But the demand typically isn't
that strong, where everyone in

your potential audience is looking
every single day to see if Garrett

Batty released another movie.

You've got a dozen or maybe a
couple hundred that are doing

that because you're famous.

But like not everybody in your market
is Googling, like setting up Google

alerts for Garrett Bat's next movie.

So we've gotta take it to them.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Come on,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Come on people.

It's our call to action today.

Go and set up a Google

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Google

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Alert for

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

Yeah.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
podcast episode.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
You have to dust that Google

alert off every two years.

One let's see.

I had a thought.

I don't know if it left me.

Oh.

If you're thinking as an independent
filmmaker, well, my audience is Netflix.

You know, if you're, if you're saying,
look, the only people, and I keep

saying Netflix, but you know, where
that's obviously the big behemoth

that we, people we all wanna get on.

But the thought is starting to occur
over these pa over releasing faith of

angels and say, look, those that are only
watching Netflix not paying you money.

They're not buying your product ever.

You, you, you, you'll
never get money for that.

If, if you're saying, look, I only
wanna talk to Netflix people, you'll

never, ever pay for your movie that way.

And so you've got to figure out those
to how to find and talk to those that

are paying for the type of content
you're creating, like directly paying.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: I'm
not going to change somebody's habit.

By releasing a movie one,
you know, every two years,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
just sit on the couch with

remote binging Netflix series,
this movie is not for them.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

Good point.

So what's next then?

You've been, you know, kind of in
the background the last couple of

months going, alright, where's, where
else is this movie going to play?

How else are we gonna get this
movie out in the marketplace?

So maybe talk to us a little bit about
what strategies are you implementing?

How are you approaching the process
of, okay, there's other windows.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Are we gonna access those?

Are you doing it yourself?

Are you using an aggregator
or a sales agent?

Like, talk to us a little bit about the
rest of the process coming, going forward.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Okay.

Well this is, this is probably where you
learn from my mistakes and not my actions.

Right.

as I do, as I say, not as I do.

So right now I've got like.

A dozen tabs open on my Chrome browser
of different, different places.

Everything from Amazon, seller Central
you know, their Amazon in January

updated their, direct to, you know, film
agreements, right where you can become

a seller and place your title on Amazon
for Or pay to download or streaming.

certainly there are checkpoints
and guards and, and they don't

accept everything submitted.

But I'm kind of in the weeds on
that, on I'm, I'm in like up to

my eyeballs in their contract and
agreements to say, look, does it

make sense for us just to release
directly Amazon for rental and pay?

And what is the timeline on
that and how does that happen?

So that is on my target.

And it looks like that they do
like 50%, which is, which is fine.

That's, that's more than zero, which
I'm getting right now from Amazon.

And so the goal is to say, okay, well
if I have one title or a library of

eight features that I can kind of
round the rights back up for then I can

either go as an independent seller or a
contract, like invited contract seller.

To Amazon.

I think there's value in that.

There's a lot of value in that.

Same thing, like I'm, I'm, re renewing,
I guess my conversations with BitMax

or these other you know, there's
BitMax and Film Hub and I think we've

talked briefly about either of those.

On this show.

I'm really kind of leaning, you know,
there's no, no endorsements there.

I'm leaning toward BitMax.

I like the idea of just this one
time fee you pay and they can

put it on all these platforms.

But there is a Reddit thread
that says you should do is great.

You should do that, but reserve
Amazon for your, for yourself.

Just go

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Hmm.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: which

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Interesting.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: thing.

So I want to check the, you
know, how much effort it takes

to put it directly on Amazon.

And then thirdly DVD, there's
still a market for DVD.

You know, you look at some of these
titles that are similar titles to what

your genre is, and you say you can click
on Amazon, you know, DVD right now and

search your different titles and say, oh,
this particular film, and it says, sold,

you know, 200, 200 units last week, or
two oh units per month, or whatever it

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
He said, what two oh units

is more than zero units.

A, a quick DVD author you know, costs
you a couple hundred bucks on Fiverr.

And then I'm, I'm on another panel.

I've got my DVD cover art that I'm
working on and designing that and

just kind of getting it all done.

It's these scrappy, like independent way.

It's the same thing we did there when
we released the movie in theater.

Like, okay, I guess I'm gonna stay
up late and design a website, and

then we're gonna design a poster.

You just do it.

And I'm, I'm confident that that something
will hit and yeah, it, it, there's

a lot to release and a lot going on.

Our goal to summarize it is by Mother's
Day, this thing will be everywhere

as far as available everywhere.

So that when people ask you,
Darren, Hey, where can I see it?

I dunno, where do you

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Everywhere.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Go

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Everywhere you want to.

Yeah.

That's,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: it.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
that's awesome.

So, I mean, I'm watching the, the, the,
the, the just scrubbing of the forehead

as you're saying some of these things.

So like.

How hard is it?

And do we recommend that indie filmmakers
take responsibility for all of those steps

like you're taking, or is there a argument
to be made for, hey, there are people

who will happily take a percentage or a
fee to do this stuff for you, and where?

Where do you kind of
draw the line between?

Oh, it's definitely worth it to hand
it off to somebody and have them do

it, versus what seems like you're
doing, which is all of it yourself.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Yeah, it's probably not

smart to do it all myself.

I mean, it, as you know,
you're your business mind.

You can either build it or buy it.

Right.

And isn't that, is there a third one?

Build or buy it or, or don't do it?

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Let's go with that.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't know
that I have one for that.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: So,
yes, we're either gonna build our method

of distribution or buy it, and you
buy it by getting a partner to do it.

And they'll, they're gonna take their 30%,
40%, or whatever it is, they'll do it.

I,

we or build it.

And I think fortunately, I, I mean, I've.

Built it before on several films and
three Coin Productions wants to build it

for, for more films and for other people.

And so this is a method that we can
do, and I'd like to run this gauntlet

one time and then you know, build
a team that can do this together.

That's the direction I'm going and I think
that it will be well worth the effort.

Happy to share that information with
others is who, who want to build it.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: I think
you're right though that it is essential

to think about, okay, every time you.

Bring on another distributor or sales
agent, you may be giving up 20, 30,

40% equity in the returns of that,
and that is such a massive chunk.

We know that it's industry standard and
it's quote unquote, the way it is and

the way it's done, but does it actually
serve indie filmmakers like us who

have a title, or in your case, eight
titles that could go out there like.

I think it just eats into the
profitability so much and they're in

first position to recoup that amount.

And so thinking about, as an
indie filmmaker, you've got

this ability to create your own.

Truly independent film ecosystem,
even if it's just you and your one

film or your six or eight films.

Think about okay, if I could, if you, if
on the very first time around you build

this flywheel and a flywheel is like
this big, massive behemoth thing that's,

you know, on a peg and it's gonna spin
around and it takes a herculean effort

to get it to go the first time around.

So this first time that you are doing
all of this distribution stuff yourself.

It's gonna suck.

Like you set a date.

So now you have a timeline, which means
there might be some late nights and some

weekends that you're getting it done
in order to get it done by May 15th.

You could say, I'm gonna get
it done this year and take less

time, but you don't wanna do that.

So you're saying I want
it done by May 15th.

So that means Hercule effort, a hundred
percent of your time and focus is gonna be

on the distribution of this, these films
over the next six weeks as you do this.

But that first rotation
is the hardest one.

And then you're gonna say, okay, great.

Well let's put Serta approach
into that same flywheel.

Well, let's put Freetown into that one.

Let's put out of liberty into that one.

Let's put this one.

And all of a sudden, with each consecutive
film, it gets easier and easier.

And because you're not giving
away 20, 30% each time, it's

gonna grow faster and faster.

Then what you've built is a system
that now others can tap into and give

you 15, 20, 25, 30, 30 5%, whatever
you want to take to say, look, I'm the

house that has the relationship with
these distributors and these outlets.

For faith-based, family friendly stuff.

And if you want to do that,
I've already built the flywheel.

So now you're talking to people who
don't want to put in the time and

effort to get that first spin around.

And it's maybe not as enticing
for them because once they've done

that first spin, they don't have.

A second film to go around
again and again and again, or

a third or a fourth or a fifth.

So I, from the outside looking in,
talking to Garrett, the owner of

Three Coin Productions is like,
oh, that's kind of a no brainer.

It's gonna suck for six weeks, but
then you're gonna have the first one

done and it's only gonna get easier
and faster, and it's gonna give

you greater outcomes with each time
around that flywheel that you spin it.

And once you start bringing in other
people to keep that momentum going, and

once you bring in other films, I mean
next year, NRB, you could be there on

the flip side going, Hey, I'm looking for
content because I've got this flywheel

and I can distribute your movie for you.

And it all happens in
the background, right?

Because you've built the
flywheel and the team to run it.

So I'm excited to see you build that.

And I think it's something we should,
you know, check in on every six months or

so, like, Hey, how's that flywheel going?

Because.

That's, that's really, really big.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Well, it could, yeah.

I mean, it, it could be very, it could be
a very key tool in our goal to, to create.

Films and create and
release feature films.

The the downside is, is that, you
know, am I becoming the enemy?

Am I, am I starting become a distributor?

And for every six weeks that I'm
here now designing cover art for

DVD release to sell a couple hundred
units, six weeks that I'm not on

set or writing or doing what I, I.

Doing what needs to be done in order to
create the movies that I wanna release.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: there
has to, I have to figure out that balance.

And maybe it's a matter of going back
and reading the book, the E myth, know,

and finding this balance between the
creative and the business and, turning

that over to somebody that can do that
or deciding what, what I want to do.

And that's more, more of a

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: It's
good to hear how you're thinking about it.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
rather than.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah,
it's really good for the audience

to hear how you're processing it in
real time because these are decisions

they're gonna be confronted with
at some point in their journey.

But there's this saying that my
friend Carl Richards brought up

to me multiple times, and he says
that profit equals permission.

And so by cutting out the middleman in
this process, you, Garrett, three Coin

Productions can be more profitable, which
means you can then give yourself more

permission to do the thing you wanna do.

So because you're not paying 20 to
30% to a distributor, that 20 to 30%

can now go to someone who's running
that part of the business for you.

So you can ultimately hire someone
to find new pro, find new titles.

You can have someone, a graphic
designer to do all that stuff.

You can find someone to handle the
actual physical button, pushing of

submit, submit, submit, check in on
this stuff, create a report, send it

out to filmmakers like it's a team
of two or three people, and then

you're freely, that thing is spinning.

Independent of whether or not you touch
it, and that's what you're building

towards with the flywheel is ultimately
something that someone else can run and

manage and you get the profit from it.

That then gives you permission to
go and invest in your next film

or freeze up your time to do the
next project or whatever it is.

So yeah, it's gonna be, you're not
gonna start going to production in

the next six weeks because you're
focused on this and that's okay.

But then after that.

It's gonna get easier and easier.

And then that balance shifts
between, okay, I built this thing

now so now I can go do this thing.

I'm in the same mode with financing
and fundraising right now.

I'm not on set.

I wish I was, I wish part of me
wishes that somebody was paying me

a monthly fee to be producing their
movie right now because man, that

would be great 'cause financing.

Raising money doesn't pay very well.

It doesn't pay anything.

You're raising money, not paying
yourself money to raise the money, right?

So

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: that
same boat of I'm going to take six

months or 12 months, however long
it takes to get this first flywheel

going, which is the first fund.

But then after that fund, two's gonna be
easier and fund three is gonna be easier.

And by the time we're producing
movie 15 and 20 and 30, that

thing's spin in full speed.

We can just keep making
movies all the time.

That's gonna be a crap ton of fun, right?

But I know that I have to take six to 12
months of grunting it out and grinding it

out every day with this hercule effort.

'cause I don't have a team behind
me to get this first fundraised.

But even then, I know once that
first big check comes in, the

second one's gonna be easier.

The third, fourth, all the way
through 10th, they're gonna be.

They're gonna come at rapid pace.

So I think it's an important principle
for the audience to take away that

like sometimes you not trade the big
goal that you're after of like being a

director, being a writer, being on set.

I.

You're not giving up on it.

You're saying, I'm gonna go over
here and invest time and energy

and even money into this J curve,
which is like, it's gonna suck.

It's gonna go below equilibrium
for who knows how long.

And it feels like it keeps going
down and down and down and down.

But at some point it's gonna start uptick.

And when it does that, it go
breaks through that equilibrium.

And it's almost, you know, vertical,
it's exponential growth at that

point because you invested in a
system, a flywheel that can then

generate those outcomes without you.

Whereas if you just keep going linearly,
yeah, it might be better for the next

six or 12 or 18 months, but it will
never be better than that J curve.

If you're watching the video, it's
way easier to see the hand motion,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
your hand motions.

Maybe we should describe some hand

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: but a J
curve is something that goes down first.

If you're plotting it on an
XY graph, it goes down first.

It sucks, and then at some point it
comes back up and that's when it.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Darren,
I think too, and maybe this is more

philosophizing than actual ev evidential,
you know, experience based sharing.

But you have your, if, if you're
saying that hey, every filmmaker, every

independent filmmaker, whatever it is,
whatever your goal is, is going to have

some sort of J curve associated with it.

choose what that is.

You choose your hard right, and you say,
look, okay, I don't wanna be a graphic.

I don't want to design.

My, my own webpage or my DVD menu
for, for movie I'm making, right?

But I wanna be able to make movies.

And so, you know, maybe it is a matter
of saying, look, that J curve, for

some people that trajectory is, I
gotta shoot everybody else's music

video, or I'm gonna have to work
on a bunch of films, studio stuff.

You know, as a, as a not a
director to be able to build.

That network or build the team or
whatever, go through that J curve and

learning curve point where I can now
make the content that I want to make

or that I'm passionate about, or that
project that has been my life goal to

make it yeah, whether, so you, you, we,
you have to choose your hard, I think,

and that is probably whether you're an
independent filmmaker or a, you know,

something easier like a rocket scientist.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Yeah, that's well said.

Choose your hard.

Maybe that's the the episode title
today, but, but it's a hundred

percent true across the board, right?

You gotta pay your dues as a PA before
you start going up in production.

You gotta pay your dues as a camera
utility or as a second, second or

whatever ac in order to become a
dp, like you just every single.

Path in film is a J curve.

It's something where you have to
invest time and money and energy

into that thing, so you're below
the equilibrium level of zero.

Like if you kept not investing
time and money and energy into

that thing, you'd stay at zero.

But at some point you invest
it so you're in the negative,

and then it starts to pay off.

You keep going.

If you're smart about building the
systems, then it can accelerate and be

an exponential growth at that point.

So that's not, it doesn't
work that way for everybody.

I'm not saying this is the secret to
success in the film industry, but every

single thing that's worth doing requires.

A movie in requires investment upfront.

So you're in the hole, a million dollars,
and then you climb out of that hole.

And if your marketing starts to compound
and you do it smartly like we're talking

about today, then the growth over time
starts to go up and it far surpasses what.

You could have done with that money
and time and energy otherwise.

Right.

And that's what we're all
hoping and working towards.

But I think systems and flywheels are
certainly something that filmmakers should

pay attention to because that's where
you can generate more profit over time.

It gets easier and easier the more
times around that flywheel you go.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
It all makes sense, man.

Who knows?

Tune in next week where we're
probably, you know, at the bottom of

that J curve going what are we doing?

I just wanna get a real job.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: my
flywheel fell off and it's on the

ground and it's not spitting anymore.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
hook got snagged in the

stu sort of tree behind me.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
No, it's, it's.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: you
bring up Flywheel and we had that live

stream last night with Angel Susan.

It was fun to chat with John Finley
and John shouted out the editors, you

know the, one of the questions was,
what was your favorite moment in making

the film or whatever, or what's the
favorite scene or senior most proud of?

You know, we're all kinda like, well, how
do you say, you know, how do you point to

yourself and say, oh, I'm proud of this.

You know, that's kind of, there's no
way that that doesn't sound kind of.

Self-serving.

But John's, John as classy as
knows how to answer that question.

He goes, I'll tell you
what I'm most proud of.

He goes, I don't know how to fly
fish one bit, but based on our

edit, it looks like I fly fish.

So I'm most proud of our editors
for putting that together.

And I was like, yeah.

So there's your fly, there's
a flywheel tie in right there.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Well,
and adding onto that, one of the editors

was John Standin on a reshoot day
because John was in New Jersey and we

needed, we needed some pickup shots of
John in the waiters and in the shirt.

And so Aaron, one of our editors,
Don, don the gear and here we go.

You know, like it's pretty amazing.

So yeah, the edit team props to them.

Very cool, man.

I do think it's worth a short conversation
about what's going on with the box

office this year because everybody is
lamenting the death of cinema again.

It's happening again.

We go through the death of cinema
every year as soon as something doesn't

perform according to expectations
from random people on the internet.

So it's, I think it's worth
five or 10 minutes of our

time to talk about box Office.

Notably the big release this
weekend was Snow White from Disney.

And you know, underperformed.

Now we say things like underperformed
and it cracks me up because man,

as an indie filmmaker, I would love
to make $42 million opening weekend

in three days, like $10,000 per
screen average on 4,200 screens.

I, it's so hard for me to go, oh yeah,
that's terrible, terrible outcome, man.

It sucks for, sucks for them.

That was, that must be a crappy movie.

Like, I can't do that because
it's 42 million and the

next, the next largest film.

'cause a lot of times we see where it's
like 42, 41, 35, 30, but no, this week 42.

And then the second film was 4,200.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Oh, oh, you're talking about 4.2

million

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Sorry, yeah, 4.2

million for the next highest
movie Black Bag, which is in its

second week of release, you know?

Oh, it's just crazy to me.

So, thoughts on this?

I mean, I'm not, I don't wanna talk
about Snow White as a movie because

that's neither here and there we're,
we're not, we're not people who,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
We're not reviewers.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
reviewers, right?

I, I don't care.

But $42 million to me is
like, how is that bad?

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

Well, I mean, I don't know.

I mean, if you, yes.

I mean, if you, I, I'm not
in those Disney offices.

I have been before in those

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: As a
temp worker when I was worked out in la.

But and so those mornings
after when a movie.

It doesn't perform to expectations.

Those are, those are dreadful mornings,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Hmm.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
you come in and you go,

Hey, it doesn't matter.

I mean, we worked our guts
out to put that thing on 4,200

screens and we spent hundreds.

hundred plus million dollars
to market this thing.

And we navigated through very treacherous
cancel culture with, with a couple

of different stars, with different
opinions that we're trying to figure

out how to appeal to a broad audience.

we only did 10,000 per screen when
other wide releases have done better.

Then yeah, that is something you
scratch your head and go, okay, gosh,

you know, is it the, our theater's
down or is it the movie, whatever.

So I could see, I could see why that
there are these internet, articles

the following Monday saying is
Cinema dad, you know, obviously those

get clicks and things like that.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: I

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: it did.

It did half of what Captain America did
last month, you know, 88,000,020 1000

per screen average on 4,100 screens.

So like I, I just feel
like Disney's gonna be fine

and

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
yeah, we can

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: I dunno.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: in.

I, one of the guys I follow is Wade Majors
is an incredible very, very opinionated

critic not only movie critic, but like
industry critic and, yeah, his take

on on Disney is, is very insightful
as far as maybe, maybe return to your

roots and talk to the broad audience.

What stands out to me is Last Supper is
an independent film, faith-based film

released a few weeks ago, two weeks
ago it was number six last week out.

And right this week it did another 1.3

million.

It's in the top 10.

is not a the Chosen Last Supper, which
is coming out in a couple of weeks.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Oh wow.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634: kind of
like, I don't know if you remember when,

you know, DVDs were a huge thing and red
Box would get, like if, you know, if, if

we knew that Snow White and the Huntsman
coming to DVD, red Box would release.

A, a Snow white Ripoff, or, you
know, of b-movie type thing.

And not that that's what the
Last Supper is, but the timing of

the release of the last supper.

Knowing that the Chosen Last Supper,
season five is coming out, and

they've known about that for years.

It's, it's curious, it's
very curious timing.

There was a conversation about, you
know, would chosen audiences be confused

that the last supper, you know, if I go
and this is coming out now before the

chosen last supper, I gonna be confused?

Am I gonna buy a ticket?

And, think, wait, why are
they using a different cast?

Why is this not the, you
know, where's Jonathan Rumi?

And I guess the response, the
chosen response was, they'll know,

which I think is so great,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
So anyway, congrats to independent

film getting, getting number 10,
breaking the box office there.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: I am
curious 'cause it's from paper, air media

and I can't find them anywhere online.

The only thing it's that I'm kind of
connecting it to is paper airplane,

which is like, hanger is something
that we used in the release of our

films with the marketing process.

So I wonder if they're trying their
hand at distribution or if it's just

two completely different companies.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Oh I don't know.

That's a good question.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
But there's no link to them.

I don't see any other films that they've
done, and so that's an interesting one.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
We need to have Brandon Jones from

Film Frog on it so he can talk about
the hangar and the paper airplane,

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
That'd be cool.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
that's a very good resource.

So maybe I'll reach out to Brandon Jones.

Anyway, it's fun to see it.

Yeah, I don't think
the box office is dead.

I think that, I do think that
you find these niche audiences.

Studios has of Kings coming out, and
I talked to Brandon Purdy last night.

He was there at the offices and he said
that movie is selling on track, uh, sound

of Freedom as far as that opening weekend,
that Sound of Freedom did 15 million.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: You go.

That'd be.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
excited about that.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634:
We would love to see it.

There was also a, a, a, a thing
that's making the rounds on LinkedIn

this week, which was like, cinema
United kind of released a, a study

where it was talking about, you
know, people wanna go to theaters

and they like the theater experience.

It's valuable.

It's worth the cost of entry.

People like going to movies.

The problem isn't the
experience, it's the supply.

It's what movies are in theaters.

And so to be seeing more family
friendly stuff, to be seeing more

things that are more accessible
to broader audiences excites me.

I'm not against R rated movies.

I love 'em.

Like I've thoroughly enjoyed Mickey 17.

Like there's nothing in my
mind as a consumer wrong with

PG or with rated R stuff.

But as a producer as, and going into being
a financier executive producer through my

fund, like I gotta look at the marketplace
and go, what is the existing demand?

Who's being underserved?

There were 300 R-rated movies
released in theaters last year.

There were 20 PG movies released last
year, and PG 13 sometimes is too risky

for a mom of four kids and wants to
take their family out on the weekend.

Maybe sometimes they're
opting out of the PG 13 stuff.

And so to be able to give the
audience that's hungry for more

media, for more content, for more
films that they can watch as a

family, I think is a smart move.

That's where I'm putting my bets
right now, but it'll be really

interesting to see how it plays out.

I mean, everybody was lamenting the same
thing last year, how the, the theatrical

was down compared to the year before,
and yet it ended up being, you know,

200 million or something more than 2023.

So we don't know how any movie's
gonna perform in the future this year.

All we know is let's keep making good
movies that people wanna watch and

movies will be around for a long time.

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
I love it.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Awesome.

Well, that's a good one.

Hopefully you guys took away some good
nuggets from today, like how to make

the kind of decisions for your movies.

Not by saying just do what Garrett
and Darren's are doing, but to

say how are we thinking about it?

And, and then apply it
to your own situation.

I think that's the, the takeaway.

So if you like today's
episode, do us a favor.

Share it with a friend, you
know, tell somebody about it.

Go, go.

Spread the good word of
truly independent exists.

And we're out here trying to
demystify the indie film journey.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks for listening.

Any last thoughts, Garrett?

garrett-batty_1_03-25-2025_100634:
Stay tuned.

Thanks.

daren-smith_1_03-25-2025_100634: Awesome.

We'll see you next week.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

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Our intro and outro music is
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