Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Our
beloved Sundance Film Festival after

40 years in Utah, is relocating to
Boulder, Colorado, starting in 2027.

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Garrett,
my friend, my business partner in crime.

What's up, man?

How are you?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
is that we are, uh, I

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: I think

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I like that.

Something in crime, something in

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: We're.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
co-conspirator.

Uh, I'm, I'm good Darren.

Thanks for having me and, uh, I'm
Thanks for partnering with me on this.

This is fun.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I should clarify.

We're not business partners, but
we have done business together and

we have partnered on things, and
we are co-conspirators in making

a truly independent film ecosystem
for everybody to participate in.

Hi everyone.

Welcome.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
smoothest intro yet.

This is

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
So smooth.

Hey, Garrett.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: great.

Uh, I love, uh, your energy.

Thanks very much for
bringing it each week.

Good to

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I love it.

You too.

Hey, did you hear the news?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: what
have you heard to quote Ryan Reynolds?

Uh, why, what have you heard?

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
What have you,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Is that, is

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
um, Sundance.

Our beloved Sundance Film Festival
after 40 years in Utah, is relocating

to Boulder, Colorado, starting in 2027.

So the 2026 festival will be the
very last in the state of Utah.

Did you hear the news?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I,
not only did I hear it, but that

news landed and, and broke my
internet feed, uh, which was great.

Which, um, obviously, you
know, we record here in Utah.

I've been Utah based for, for 20 years.

relocated from Southern California
and yes, so Sundance is a, is a

major part of the film industry here.

We love it.

And yes, that news broke.

Sun is leaving Utah.

And it, uh, everybody, everybody
seemed to have their own take on on

it, like why and what it's gonna do,
and doom and gloom and oh no, and,

and, uh, why couldn't we keep it here?

And things like that.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, I had.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
opinions on it.

What are,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: I wanna,
I wanna hear your opinions, but it's, it

was funny because, you know it, people
in LA were reaching out, like I was in

the middle of an earthquake or something
and they were like, are you safe?

Are you okay?

How are you feeling?

You have water and toilet
paper, and I was like.

We're good man.

We're It's okay.

Life moves on.

So yeah, it happened.

Um, and you know, a a hundred percent
of it is out of my control, and

so I tend to take the stance of if
it's outta my control, I don't give

it a lot of thought and I don't
let it affect my emotional state.

Um, I have.

Reasons that I'm sad that it is
leaving and reasons that I'm not

necessarily glad, but that I'm
indifferent that it's leaving.

And so we can talk about all the things.

But yeah, I definitely feel like we
are in a unique position to talk about

it because you and I have friends who
have had projects in the festival.

We've attended the festival.

It's local to us.

Um, so let's start with you, what
you've, I think you probably have

have paid more attention than I have.

I kind of.

Heard it.

Saw it, wrote about it, let it go.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, I think rightfully so.

I think that's a great way to handle it.

And, uh, yes, to add, uh, add a voice
to the already very overcrowded, opinion

filled, you know, non-expert calamity.

Um, I.

Here's my take on it, you know, and,
and I, and I grew up, uh, I grew

up living across the street from
one of the screening venues in Park

City at the Sundance Film Festival.

So it is an integral part, an integral
part of my influence as a filmmaker,

um, of going and going to Sundance.

Seeing all the fun, you know, the big
movie stars and all of the actors that

come in to an independent and I'm air
quoting film festival and, uh, being a

part of that, I loved being a part of it.

I love, uh, even these past couple of
years going up and supporting my own

friends who have had films premier there.

And, uh, it's just, it's a great, uh.

It's a great 10 days in January that,
uh, that we've watched grow from the

very beginning, from 40 years ago.

Um, so yes, news broke
that Sundance is leaving.

They're, they're headed out to, uh,
Boulder, which I'm so excited for.

Good, good for Boulder.

Um, in my opinion, it's been humorous
to see the, the internet break

as far as, you know, my newsfeed
or whatever I say, internet.

It's obviously a very small take on
it, but, uh, but we just, I think

needs to calm down and it's okay.

Um, one of the things that I do
want to address is like this,

this myth busting that of why.

Sundance moved.

Sundance has been talking
about moving for, for a while.

Uh, there is no there, in my opinion,
this, again, this is all in my

opinion, there is no one reason
or one cause or one nail in the

coffin as to why Sundance is moving.

Uh, the, I I will say that this
many are saying that it is about

Utah politics and that is just not.

It not only is that a
stretch, it's just lazy.

It's lazy to think that and a little
bit kind of a, a, uh, yeah, it's

giving credit where credit isn't due or
it's giving blame or blame isn't due.

Right.

The Utah has always been a conservative
state and that didn't stop Sundance

from thriving here for decades, for four

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Right.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: anything,
I think, I think Utah's gotten more

progressive over the years and more
purple over the years because I remember

moving here in, you know, the early
two thousands and it was like 80% LDS.

Now it's like less than 50.

I think so.

Like not that LDS equals
conservative, but I personally feel

like it's less conservative than.

The, the eighties, nineties and
aughts when, when I was visiting

here and have family here.

And I'm just like, man, I, I mean,
I live in Provo, Utah and feel very

comfortable as a very centrist,
uh, individual politically and very

staunchly independent politically.

And so I just, I don't buy it either.

I, I think you're right.

I think it's a lazy argument.

And I don't even understand the
need to try and pin it on one

reason, because what does that do?

Like it say you're right.

What?

It doesn't change anything.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Well,
you're not right, and, and I just do, I

do wanna clarify that you're not right.

For years we embraced
Sundance both economically,

culturally, and logistically.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: City
bent over backwards to make Sundance.

Its home, uh, you know, shutting down
things, just making, just rolling

out the red carpet for Sundance
and it's, it's thrived in Utah.

Not only did we embrace
it, but we built it.

We, we built Sundance.

And so, uh, don't, please don't be,
you know, if you're an independent

filmmaker that's concerned that Utah
politics are controlling what comes in

and out of that is not the case at all.

And don't fall for that lazy argument.

Um.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
think the, the flip side of that

argument is also not true in that.

We didn't want Sundance here anymore.

I, I heard one or two people say,
well, Sundance got too woke and

got too progressive, and the films
no longer align with our values.

I'm like, guys, it's never been
about like Utah values and Hollywood

values clashing at Sundance.

That's never been the thing.

And whe whether you believe or feel that
Sundance has lost its way, we made a

very aggressive bid to keep them here.

Both from the state, the state,
the cities that were involved,

like the infrastructure changes
that they were gonna try to make.

Like they, they put in a very strong bid.

And so I think the reasons aren't around.

We wanted them to stay and they
didn't wanted to leave or vice versa.

It was different than that.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
was other reasons,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I think
it's, it's about practicality, right?

It's not politics,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I think so.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
practicality, right?

Park City, it's just an, an incredible
place to have this, but it was very

tight on infrastructure going up
there the past couple of years.

You know, I paid the $50 a day to park
close to Main Street, that's a lot.

That's, that's.

That's significant.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: you

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: The
infrastructure hasn't changed in 20 years.

Like, I mean, it's still a two-lane road
with the center turn lane getting into

town, which is just insane when you're
inviting another 50 or 75,000 people to

visit your little mining town like the,
they needed infrastructure changes and

I don't think that that was ever gonna
change 'cause it historically hasn't.

As long as I've been aware of the
festival, they haven't really made

any upgrades except for the buses.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Well, and, and, and that's, that's

their option and prerogative.

And I'm, frankly, I'm glad they haven't.

Like that's what keeps
Park City quaint and,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: and, and,
uh, I love that I can drive up there

right now today, 20 years after living
there and park across the street from

Senate Film Festival and look and see.

My, my family's name still etched on the
mailbox in the house that I grew up in.

We haven't

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Wow.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: years.

And

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
you know, there's this wonderful

kind of down home mentality

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Mm-hmm.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Uh, I'm probably the only person

that's ever described Park
City right now as down home.

But, uh, I.

But, uh, I, I love it.

I love that it's still
quite, yeah, still quick.

It's an incredible place.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
similar mountain town vibe.

Just more space, more
hotels, bigger venues.

If Sundance is saying, Hey, we're
growing, we're gonna take bids from

Cincinnati, from Park City and Salt
Lake, or from Boulder, or they, I

mean, they had Santa Fe, they had
Florida, they had all sorts of places.

they're gonna choose one and that's great.

Uh, so

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
And of all the places.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: it's
not a slight on Park City or Utah.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, but of all the places

they picked, the best one.

Let's just say that outright, like
Boulder's a cool city has a lot more

infrastructure like you mentioned,
and will have a very similar vibe.

I think Sundance will feel about the same,
very similar, somewhere in that realm

as far as like instead of Cincinnati,
which would feel very different.

Florida would feel very different.

It would change the entire
ethos and vibe as the kids say

these days of the festival.

So I'm glad that it was
Boulder, given all the.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I think it's gonna be great.

I think that, uh, we as an independent
a, we as a Utah independent film

market, uh, it, it doesn't have any,
doesn't have to feel badly about

sance going, doesn't have to be upset.

I think it's a great
kind of a mutual breakup.

Sance, thank you for being here.

Thanks for building the Utah community.

Best of luck in Boulder.

I can't wait to go out there and
see some films and for us here

in Utah, great opportunity to.

Fill this gap of a festival or,
you know, really nurture the

independent film market here in Utah.

There are some wonderful festivals,
uh, shout out to Zions, um, that

occur very similar time period to
Sundance and the, and so, and we

would welcome growth in those areas.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

I'll also say it's, you mentioned
the opportunity that now exists,

you know, within a day or two.

Governor Cox, and, uh, for those who
aren't familiar, Ryan Smith is kind

of a well-known name here in Utah.

He sold a company years ago for
buku bucks and now like owns.

Sports teams.

The Utah, he owns the jazz, he
owns the, the center that is,

they play in, they, he started and
brought in the Utah Hockey Club.

Like he's just very invested in Utah
and he and Spencer Cox both came out

saying, we're gonna build something new.

We're gonna build something that's
unique and something that's true to our.

Whether or not it's values, but true
to our heritage here in Utah, you know,

we're the most entrepreneurial state
around is the way they kind of framed it.

It's like we can, we can do this.

We can create something new.

We already have the infrastructure, we
have the volunteers, we have the history.

I.

Creating a new festival to fill
that, that void isn't actually

gonna be that difficult if it just
means putting a little bit of money

in and getting the support of the
government and the people backing it.

So I'm excited for what happens there and
I'm knocking on the door saying, can I

come in and be a part of this room please?

'cause they need the Indies
filmmakers in the room, not just the

legislatures or the money peoples.

They need the filmmakers in there too.

So I'm excited to see.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Good.

Well, I, well, I, I am, uh.

I will, I do have a little bit of
skepticism on that because a film,

a film festival, we, we know it,
it isn't just invented, it isn't

just legislated into existence.

Like there

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Right.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
to be this passion behind it.

It's gotta be driven and it can't
just be relying on government

funding, uh, venue every year.

Um, so I love that there's desire from.

Whatever that, that scene to create
or be involved in supporting the

film industry and the film festival.

That's awesome.

Um, uh, we have yet to be, to, to
see what that is going to be, and I

don't think we need to wait for it.

I think as an independent
spirit, we, we create it.

Uh, there are many wonderful festivals
already that have been around for 10,

15, 20 years and I think that there's
a great opportunity to, to fill that

window uh, in January up in Park City.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, and I mean, that's a good

thing for independent filmmakers.

If there's another festival, especially
one that's gonna need indies in order to.

Get its, you know, feet under itself.

They probably won't be attracting
the, the big studio releases that

want to premiere at a massive festival
the first, second, third year.

So it's gonna require indie filmmakers
creating good, unique stories that can

only be told in a way that the festival
resonates with, to say, okay, what's our

programming look like year one, year two?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: that's
a, that's something that we can capitalize

on and take advantage of and really use.

To get more awareness for indie film and
more opportunities for indie filmmakers.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I agree.

It's a good, it's a good

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Breathe it in.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: around.

I think it's, I mean, it's news all
around how we react is, is up to us.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: But don't,
don't fall afraid of just, you know,

repeating, talking points that aren't,
that don't have any validity to them.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Alright, man.

Well let's, let's put a pin in that
one and move on to our next segment.

We got a couple of different topics
that we wanted to go over today

because there's a lot happening and
so we wanted to kind of touch on it.

We're not necessarily a
breaking news podcast, but it.

Seems very appropriate.

We are u uniquely situated to,
uh, be sitting here in Utah

when this, uh, news broke.

So, um, next up for our episode today,
let's talk about you're really, like we

mentioned in a previous episode, one or
two episodes ago, you're really in the

thick of the post theatrical distribution.

You're looking at, uh, digital release.

You're looking at physical
like DVDs and Blu-rays.

You're looking at streaming options,
like there's so many things for

Faith of Angels specifically.

So do you want to give us kind of an
update and like how are things going

with, you mentioned BitMax on a previous
episode, you mentioned DVDs, you've been

sending me like links, like, does this
work, can you see, can you check this out?

So like you're in the thick of it.

Give us a bit of an update and if
there's anything you wanna share that

you think would be helpful to those
that are maybe gonna do the same process

in the next couple of months or years.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Um, yeah, a hundred percent.

We are definitely in the thick
of it and kind of embracing

that true independent spirit of.

Getting this movie out into,
into, uh, audiences wherever they

can, you know, watch the film.

Uh, this, we obviously
talk about Faith of Angels.

We talk a lot about that film
because that's the one that

you and I produced together.

So we are this, this week I've been
working on the DVD, just getting, making

sure that that gets authored and out there
and there's a conversation to be had about

physical media making a comeback or, or.

At least still being very
relevant, especially in an

independent film landscape.

Um, which, so for your, I don't think I
told you this, you know, I, I created the

cover art, you know, and just designed the
cover art and have a, somebody from Fiverr

that's off authoring the DVD and Blu-ray.

and then we've got a, a
lab that'll replicate.

Um, and in that process, I, you know,
opened up a seller account on Amazon and

we'll upload, you know, the artwork and,
and start selling those products there.

So I've been doing a
lot of research on that.

Right after I uploaded the DVD or
the, the artwork, you know, and

kind of set up the thing for sale.

Um, enough, I get two emails
like DVD purchase, like

you've made, you've sold DVDs.

And I was thinking, wait a
second, this isn't how it happens.

Nobody's, they're not just like,
we're, we're not promoting,

we're not advertising.

Nobody's sitting waiting on their
computer, you know, for, for

Faith Angels to go on sale on DVD.

So

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Except.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: at.

Right.

Maybe they are.

Who knows?

All I know is that I haven't replicated
yet, and so I gotta figure out

really quickly how to get a couple
of copies of these DVDs sent out.

Um, I'll, I'll, you know, you're
the one that ordered the DVD,

it's coming, I'll send an email
that said, Hey, just stand by.

Wait for replication.

But, uh,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Well,
you just said it on our podcast, and

millions of people listen, so you better
get ready because this hits in two weeks.

You got two weeks, Garrett to
get a million copies ready to go.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I have on
my whiteboard in my office, just May 6th

Tuesday is, uh, the DVD release date.

But I think we're gonna sneak
it out there before that,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Nice.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
some of these requests.

Uh, but it was, it's fascinating
to look at independent films on

Amazon and see there's a, there's a
count of like, you know, hey sells

50 a month or sells 500 a month,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I love that count.

I mean, who knows how accurate
that is or how consistent that is?

I haven't, I don't have any
data or research to track that.

I'm sure there is, numbers are out
there, but exciting as an independent

filmmaker to say, you know, if I can
place a DVD for 22 bucks and replicate it

at a dollar 25 a unit, you know, that's,
that's another revenue stream that can

help offset the cost of making a movie.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, this has been top of mind.

I've been even doing some research.

Um, over the last few weeks about
what, what are, what's the actual

like, net revenue to filmmakers
from the different types of VOD?

For example, you have transactional VOD,
subscription based VOD advertising based.

You have fast channels, you have DVD, you
have all these different options, right?

And there it's this weird disparity
between like there are some channels

that you can release your film on
where you make dollars every time

someone purchases it or rents it.

And there are other platforms on the
other end of the spectrum that will give

you somewhere between six and 20 cents
when someone watches your film and.

Just like this could be an entire
episode of me just ranting about

streaming, but I'm not gonna do that.

But just from a very high level,
if you can make $3 over here and

you make 12 cents over here, I.

I mean, you can do the math and you
can just realize that, okay, maybe

I should put more thought and effort
and time and focus and energy into

the things that pay multiple dollars
every time someone buys it or rents it.

Compared to over here where it's
completely devalued to the point of

being essentially free and you're making
10, 12 cents a stream from a platform,

it just, to me, doesn't align with the
way that I see being truly independent.

And so, yeah, I'll stop.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Darren?

Why do we do that?

Well, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I
want to dig deeper a little bit in

that as a filmmaker, there's that
desire, there's that ego, right?

Of like, oh, my movie is
available to a billion people

worldwide 'cause of X, you know.

Netflix has so many subscribers
and now they can watch it.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Um, or
so, so why sign with, you know, certain

streamer that might not pay out?

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I certainly can see why.

If you're not, uh uh, if you don't
have any participation in the

upside, you want it to get as much
distribution as possible, because if

you're an actor, writer, director.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Cinematographer, whatever it is.

If it's on Netflix, then that
benefits you in your career.

'cause you can say, oh yeah,
my last movie's on Netflix.

So I totally get that.

And I would say 90% of filmmakers are
in the right by saying, yeah, I want

as much distribution as possible.

But from us sitting here as like almost
fiduciaries, right, of the people who are

the stewards of the investors' money, we
have to be thinking about profitability.

We have to be thinking
about return on investment.

And as soon as a movie goes on a
streaming platform that's available

all the time, anywhere for essentially
free or 20 bucks a month, you know,

how are you gonna then tell those same
audience members, oh, buy the way.

You can also buy it on iTunes for $20,
or buy it directly from us for $20.

Right?

How do you do that?

I don't think you go back, which is why
historically we've had different windows

for these different types of releases
because essentially it gets progressively

less valuable the further along in the
windows you go, so you save your least.

Profitable windows for the end.

And we talked about this when we
were talking about streaming on on

Angel Studios and how maybe that
platform's a little different and we're

excited to see how that plays out.

But I think as producers specifically,
not necessarily as filmmakers as a whole,

but as producers who are trying to get
a return on investment for the investors

that put money into your movie, I think
you have to really be considering.

Where's the best place to do it, and
if you've recouped your money and your

investor made a return and you're in
profit, well, yeah, by all means, go and

get as much distribution as possible.

But until that moment happens, I think
going and putting it on a platform where

you're making sense every time someone
streams it in, in lieu of the hard work of

self-distributing, putting it on Amazon,
selling it direct from your own website.

You know, doing physical DVDs, doing it on
all these other platforms where you make

more per purchase or per rental, I think
that's the wrong way to think about it.

So I think it just is on us as producers
to really think about the financial

profitability of the project and how
are we serving that in the early stages

of distribution to make sure that we
can recoup, make some money so that

we can then go make another movie.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah,
I think you, you've, you've talked

a lot about the principles of.

Huh, oversubscribing or, or
becoming oversubscribed or whatever.

And I think that there's value, I I,
I'm curious if something like that

applies to what we're doing here, where
if there is a, an awareness already

of your title and a demand for it.

Great.

You can like, like, put
it out there on Netflix.

That's, that's fantastic.

'cause that feeds, I think, I think
the demand feeds the, the, the growth

and the awareness, or awareness
feeds, demand or whatever it is.

Uh.

So, but, but where we have maybe these
niche titles or a truly independent

film, um, where we are creating the
conversation behind it really directing

the audience on where they should go
find it yes to, to be able to put it

out there for, to essentially free.

Um, yeah, I don't know.

There's, there's no, there's no ego in.

Independent film distribution, you
can't, there's, can't get excited.

You can't, if you're sitting with an
investor, you for your next movie, and

you say, well, my last three movies went
straight to Netflix, care about that.

Say, what did your ne last
three movies bring in?

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Oh, okay.

Well, I sold 3000 DVDs on
Amazon in the first month.

Okay, now that's a conversation.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
From my own email list for free

without any advertising spent.

Right?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
There's certainly be said for that,

and I think you could also look at
the idea of windowing in terms of.

Being the ability to be oversubscribed.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Uhhuh.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: could
be oversubscribed in theaters because

there's a limited number of showtimes
and limited number of seats and a limited

amount of time that it's in theaters.

So you have that built
in capacity or supply.

That demand could then outsize, right?

And you could be oversubscribed if you're
selling out shows, you're oversubscribed.

We were oversubscribed for our
premieres of both of our movies.

They were sold out.

There were too many tickets,
um, or too much demand for

tickets and only so many seats.

And so that was a really good thing.

And it led to really exactly.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: fuel demand.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: People
could see that it was a sold out premiere

and go, oh, this must be a good movie.

'cause lots of people wanna see it.

And that drives words of mouth
and all the other things.

How do you have a scenario where demand
outpaces supply when it's a digitally

available on streaming scenario?

Like it's impossible.

You cannot be oversubscribed on Netflix.

Because it's infinite supply,
infinite time, infinite everything.

Like, so you can't, so that's why
it should go kind of at the end of

the strategy and you put the things
where you can be oversubscribed

or you can manufacture a situation
where you could be oversubscribed.

Like look at DVDs.

What if you created a hundred
limited editions signed by you and

Michael, copies of the Blu-ray and
you charge twice as much for those?

Well, you could be oversubscribed
'cause there's a limited amount.

And the people that want
those, we'll pay for them.

And as soon as they're out, they're out.

Right.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: she'll want

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
But I guarantee the, the dentist

family's gonna buy some of those.

Right.

We, we will probably ship 'em to
them and say, thank you for being.

You know what I mean?

There are people who are massive, Garrett
Batty fans who say, yeah, I want, I

want the combination platter of the
Blu-ray, the DVD, the signed screenplay,

and the poster for a hundred dollars.

Okay, well maybe you sell 10 of those.

Well, great, that's a thousand bucks.

That many streams do you need
to do at a 3 cents per stream

to make a thousand dollars.

That's what we're talking about here.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah,
and I'll, and I'll put a, a, a

little bit of an asterisk on this.

I, because this is not designed to be
a, a conversation a against Netflix,

but, uh, as, as a business or, or a
model, because I have friends that

have, have very lucrative careers
making, uh, films for Netflix.

But those are pre-buy.

Those are like, uh, first look
put deals where Netflix is

writing the check for the film.

And if that's the case.

A hundred percent do that.

That's great.

'cause you are not beholden
to an investor to recoup.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: exactly.

Two different things we're.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I mean, for me, yeah.

I, I'm not, I can't sign a deal
with somebody that says, we

hope it'll make your money back.

Like, that's, make any sense.

Um, good.

Okay.

Good conversation.

It leads us a little bit
into the BitMax conversation.

Maybe that's what we were going for.

Um.

Because addition to the DVD and Blu-ray
for faith of angels, which again, May

6th coming out, get your orders ready.

Uh, uh, the BitMax scenario is for,
um, streaming, for streaming solutions.

And a lot of research on
different, uh, streaming platforms,

different aggregators, or.

I guess distributors that want to want
to have exclusive streaming rights and,

um, with a couple of different other
filmmakers and from past experience,

BitMax seemed like a great solution.

So just this morning we signed
the agreement with BitMax

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Nice.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: so
we will upload Faith of Angels on,

uh, to their platform and they.

Put it out there on the, on the
platforms, the four big ones that

we suggest or that we approve.

uh, then they'll go to
more if we approve those.

But, uh, the, the, we pay a fee upfront
and then we get a hundred percent of

whatever comes back from those platforms.

So it's the decision that we made
based on what we think our audience

is going to do for this film.

Uh, we think it'll be a good decision.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
And to me that's the most compelling

part of that whole scenario,
which is it's an upfront fee.

I think you pay upfront to like upload the
thing and then for each platform you have

to pay like a little bit extra, right?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
even then, if you're all in

a couple thousand dollars, I.

And there's, they're not taking 20 or
30% or whatever on top of the platform's,

30% like iTunes or Amazon takes.

Then you're maximizing the amount of money
you get back into your pocket to pay your

investors and make a profit to make the
next movie, which again, is the goal.

Like if we're truly independent, it
means that we are regenerating the funds

from the first movie to make the next
one and the next one and the next one.

So I love that idea and I can't
wait to see how it plays out,

especially how it does compared to
Angels compared to DVD compared to

the other things that we're doing.

So it'll be really great data, and I'm
excited to share it with the audience

to say, look, here's what we learned.

Here's what we did.

And already I think you've, by, by saving
the, let's call it 20% that you would

give away to an aggregator, which is.

An intermediary between
you and BitMax essentially,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
to say, please put our movie

on these streaming platforms.

They said, great.

We'll take 20% off the top every time you
sell something there or stream it there.

Like you already increased
your profitability by doing it

yourself, and how hard was it?

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
We're in the process.

But yeah, it's gonna be an upload.

It's what I've already been doing
for everything else as far as

uploading to the DVD place, uploading
to, um, great American pure Flix.

You know, it's just another, it's more
data that, that I have to pay for.

But, uh, it, it,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Darren,
I think, I think there's a solution.

One of the things that occurred
to me too, as we're doing this is.

I think that we're in a place where
audiences have their habits, right?

The viewers have their individual habits.

If I'm going to want to watch a movie,
there are places that I will go look for

that first kind of a sequence of events.

Hey, is this movie available on Netflix?

Like, how much, how much do I have
to pay for this movie to watch it?

Our family watched, uh, the
Wild Robot this weekend.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Mm-hmm.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
paying 20 bucks to, to own

it on, off of, uh, apple tv.

And so that's, that's kind of
a habit that we're gonna view.

And it might be available right now
on Peacock or Hulu or Netflix or,

or, or excuse me, other streaming.

Um, you know, and, and, okay, do we
wanna sign up and subscribe to that?

Uh, and that might be some people's
habits to do the sign up and subscribe.

I thought it was great that we can
make faith of Angels available to.

Whatever habit, viewing habit people have.

So I imagine that even though it might
be available on DVD on Amazon for

20 bucks, you know, some generations
don't care for DVDs right now,

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: 20
bucks to rent it on iTunes or

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Great.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
I guess I should say.

So.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, a hundred percent.

I love it and I'm really excited
to keep getting updates on this.

So it sounds like in four weeks
we'll have a update of it's available

and then a couple weeks after that
we can look at how it went and how

it's doing and it's really exciting.

Um,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: we

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
it did have,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Q1.

Uh, we're

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
this at the very end of Q1, so

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: we'll
start to be able to report on how

it did with its two streaming plates
is, uh, angel Studios and Scriptures

here in a couple of weeks as

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Very cool.

Well, uh, we did get a listener question
that we should address today as well.

So thank you to Paul for sending in, for
listening and for sending in a question.

So I just wanna read part of this.

That's okay.

Um, from what I picked up on in
a previous show, it seems that

p and a, which is Prince and
advertising lenders get first out.

But at a lower interest return, and with
no equity in a project, is it possible

to give equity investors an option for
first out written into the agreement?

My thought is it might be attractive
for some investors as an added

security blanket of sorts.

For example, if they decided they'd like
to get paid out sooner, they'd have the

option to get basically the same terms
as a p and a lender slash investor.

Can something like this be done?

So, Garrett, give us your
experience on this question.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Uh, yeah, great question.

Thank you, Paul.

Um, yes.

I mean, you as an independent film, the
great news about independent filmmaking

is you get to write the rules, right?

Even, even within, you
know, certain limits of.

fundraising aspect, you obviously
have to comply with local laws and,

and, uh, business, you know, law.

But, um, sure, you can definitely
write that in your contract.

I've, I've had experiences, I've had
projects where my negative cost investors

are my first kind of equity investors
participated as p and a investors.

It's a separate loan.

Uh, but, and uh, so they either
participate in that as far as writing

them for an option for first out.

I mean, I could see that if that's
something, if you're saying, oh, this

is a 2 million movie, I've got one main
investor that's, uh, you know, than 50% of

that and he wants to have a priority, or,
then you, you'd have to write that, uh, I

think it's most important that all of your
investors are in agreement and that you

have transparency between all investors.

Because I think the,
what you want to avoid

You know, having people have separate
deals and then having them, you know,

trying to keep information from each
other, and that's just not, never, never

a recipe for, for a good experience.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, don't do that.

I love what you said though.

It's like you can do whatever you want.

And whether or not it works is really up
to the investors that you're talking to.

You can present them with the option
and they can say yes or no, just the

same way they can the other version.

One thing to keep in mind though is
that doing that will, there's, there's

a cause and effect that happens, right?

If you give that priority to
the early equity investors,

you might be making it less.

Enticing for the people coming in later.

'cause there are investors
who exclusively want to do the

last money in, first money out.

And if you've tweaked the language around
that or tweaked the waterfall, so to

speak, to where it's not a typical last
money in, first money out scenario,

they might go, well, I can, I can go
get a better return with this other

project for the same amount of money.

Because they didn't do that.

To the agreement or to the investment.

So just keep in mind that, you know,
if you put, if you put the some weight

on the, the scale on one side to
make it more enticing for an early

investor, you might be making it less
enticing for your later term investors.

And that's just something to be aware of.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: As well.

That's, that's a great point.

You wanna make sure that, uh, again,
that it's balanced and, and equal.

Um.

It so that you don't create awkward
conversations for yourself later

when you say, oh, so-and-so is
getting 25% plus an early buyout.

Would you like to participate?

suddenly that, that, uh, no,
no, just go back to, go back

to your preferred investor.

Um, I, I will There, and a way around
this or a way to, uh, another way to

couch this would be an opportunity to,
for that equity investor to buy out early.

I've had that happen on various
projects where investors, as you

know, wherever their interests are
elsewhere, um, they want to leave the

project or buy their, buy out, their
investment, uh, so they can do that too.

And then that share comes back to the
filmmakers and not the investor pool.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

Yeah.

There's, for as many movies as there
are, there's probably that many versions

of a waterfall or financing plan or
a way of structuring the investment.

And so there's really no right or
there's probably wrong ways, but like I.

Do it the way that makes sense
for you and your investors.

Right, and I will, I will just kind of.

Remind people or, or kind of echo back
to this idea of being oversubscribed.

A lot of times we, as filmmakers,
what I see at least is we think that

if we can just figure out the right
structure, then it'll happen then.

Then all the investors will come rushing
in, and I haven't experienced that.

We're seeing that happen.

It's not really a matter
of how you're structured.

It's more a matter of
are you oversubscribed?

Do you have more demand to invest in
your project than you have supply?

If your investment, if your supply
is $1 million is available, and

you have more than $1 million of
interest, you're oversubscribed.

And so I would put more time and
effort and attention into getting

oversubscribed with the investment
in your project rather than.

Who's got the right perfect exact tweaked
waterfall in order for me to get the

investment because it's, I've never had
someone go, well, your waterfall doesn't

make sense, so I'm not gonna invest.

It's always, if they wanna invest,
they'll figure out how to do it.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: if
there's limited supply and they can

see that there's a lot of demand.

Well, then you can kind of set the terms
yourself and you can say, well, this is

what makes the most sense for me in this
movie and the investors so that everybody

wins and we get this outcome of a great
movie and a financial return and, and in.

So I would focus more time and
effort there than on, you know,

what structure, what waterfall,
what app, all those things.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I have a
lunch scheduled tomorrow, Darren, with

somebody that, uh, reached out and
said, Hey, I want to talk to about,

uh, this concept of expensive money.

Um.

They've heard me mention that
before on, on the podcast or with

different conversations, and I
think it applies to this question

as well, make sure that you're not
tweaking the waterfall or tweaking

or making so many unique situations
for certain investors to come in.

That that money, their money becomes
expensive or controlling, or it

jeopardizes really the, your ability
to function and make decisions, um,

both creative and business decisions.

And I, I keep it very clear in my, in my.

Investor agreements that the, the,
the company, meaning the filmmaker

or those that own the company, you
and me as business partners, will we

have, we reserve the right to make
decisions in the best creative and

financial interests for the film.

And, uh, I think once you limit yourselves
as that, uh, or, or give those rights

away, um, it becomes very, very difficult
as an independent filmmaker to deliver

what you're committing to deliver.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Yeah, I think that's smart.

I'll be excited to hear how
that conversation goes tomorrow,

because that sounds like a fun one.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah,
no, I'm, it's somebody that's been

raising money for a long time and,
um, they're, they're, they're kind

of in that point where they're
making different accommodations.

They're like, oh, well
here's some product placement

opportunities and things like that.

And I think the light bulb went off in
them saying, this suddenly didn't become

about making the movie I wanna make.

And so how do I

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Hmm.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: down to
like saying, this is the investment.

If you're interested, great.

If not, no problem.

There's lottery tickets you can go buy.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Yeah.

Awesome,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
endorse the lottery.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: awesome.

Just the fine print in
our, in our episode.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131: I, I

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131: Well,

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
hear legal, legal saying that.

We didn't say that.

We don't have legal.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
we don't have legal, we have chat.

GPT is what I have.

Um, amazing.

Garrett.

I think we've covered a lot of
ground today, so I think it's a

good place to kind of wrap up.

But, um, ultimately I just hope that
what we're talking about here empowers

people rather than scares them away.

Yes, it's hard.

Yes, there's a lot of work involved,
but my goodness, is it fulfilling and

is it rewarding and is it worth it?

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Or else we wouldn't be
doing this 20 years in.

So hopefully that's the big takeaway for
people is like we're talking, we kind

of get into the nitty gritty at times
and it can get a little confusing or

a little arduous or daunting, but zoom
out and you go, my goodness, we get to

tell stories for a living that have the
ability to change people for the better.

To have an influence on the world around
us through the stuff that we make.

Like that's pretty amazing and incredible.

And so I'm gonna keep doing
that for as long as I can.

I'm gonna keep championing indie film
because I think it's the best way to tell

those kinds of stories, and I'm gonna
keep, you know, having these awesome

conversations with filmmakers like
you who get it and who are on the same

path and trying to do the same thing.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Great way to end.

Awesome.

I agree.

it again next week.

daren-smith_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Sounds good, man.

We'll see you then.

garrett_1_04-01-2025_131131:
Thanks for your questions.

Uh, be sure and share this podcast.

That's how we continue
to be able to make it.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

questions about today's episode.

Head over to 3coinpro.

com slash podcast.

And put in your name and an email address.

If you're a fan of the show, please
leave us a review on your favorite

podcast app and be sure to share this.

Thanks for listening.

And we'll see you next week.

Our intro and outro music is
election time by Kjartan Abel.