Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
invest where Hollywood won't.

It's a little bit of a
spicy statement, right?

But I fully believe it,

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Garrett.

How the heck are you, man?

It's good to see you.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Daren, nice to see you.

How are you?

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Oh, it's, I'm good.

I'm really good.

I feel awake and energized
and, excited to chat with you.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah,
we're we're, we're coming in a little, a

little bit later than our normal recording
time, so hopefully you are awake.

but yeah, it is good.

It's good to be here.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
It's because I needed to sleep in.

I said I need another hour.

Garrett, you just, you just wait.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: I,
uh, I would not associate Daren Smith in

sleeping in, uh, in the same sentence.

So, nice try there, Daren.

What are really up to.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Okay.

Well, I've been up to a lot of
fundraising and up to a lot of

conversations with amazing people and
people that love movies and people

that make movies, and it's just been
so fun doing all of this kind of work.

Um, I do, we mentioned last episode,
it, I'm kind of itching to get back on

set, but at the same time I, I don't
hate what I'm up to, so that's nice.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

All right.

That's fair.

That's a good, that's a good thing.

It's a

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Uh, well, we're, we're recording this.

Obviously people aren't listening to
this, but we're recording this on May

6th, which is the DVD release day, the
official release day for Faith of Angels.

And it's fun.

I woke up this morning and we are
the number one, new release still

on, uh, Amazon for Faith, for Faith.

Faith and spirituality and
DVDs, uh, which is great.

I don't know how narrow that
category is, but we'll take it.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Well, it's because of the massive

marketing campaign and advertising
campaign and the millions of dollars

we've put into that campaign, right?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I'll tell you it is.

It's the p and a.

Yeah.

No, no.

Uh, it's so fun.

It's, uh, no, it's the audience.

I think that, uh, that you've talked
about building on this podcast.

Uh, and that awareness carries over
from the theatrical efforts, and I.

we are definitely seeing
people sell units.

Uh, we picked up our big old factory order
and it's in our storage room right now.

And in the, in the spirit of truly
independent, every morning my daughter

wakes up and, and prints off the
Amazon orders and fills those orders.

So, um, that's how we're gonna do,
that's how we're gonna storm the castle.

It's gonna be great.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I love it.

I love to see it.

This is actually a really great segue.

Into our topic today.

I've been having a lot of conversations
with indie filmmakers and love

having those conversations with indie
filmmakers, but one thing that keeps

coming up is like, how do you do it?

Um, and so today we kind of wanna
flip the script on how we think

about independent filmmaking.

So for a long, long, long, long
time, we've been kind of taught

that the studios and the streamers.

The goal, like if you're gonna
make movies, you gotta put 'em

in theaters, which means a studio
needs to pick it up at a festival.

Or nowadays it's like you get, can
you get it on Apple TV or Hulu or

Netflix or one of the streamers.

But that puts us in a very
needy position, right?

If we can just get their attention,
then we'll finally like make it and

our movie dreams will come true.

Right?

But I think, and what if.

That idea is backwards.

What if they're actually dependent on us?

What if we can talk about
that for a little bit today?

So today's episode, we're really
talking about how to kind of reclaim

some of that power back, get some
leverage, and figure out how to be

profitable, realizing that they need
us maybe even more than we need them.

So what do you think about that, Garrett?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Wow.

This is a twist episode.

This, this is, uh, this is that last final
twist in the third act of season two.

So I love it.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Did we, did we put a gun on

the wall in, in season one?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
hope so.

I hope we planted the seeds
and now they're gonna pay off.

We're just gonna breadcrumb
this thing all the

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Oh man, I really hope so.

And you're gonna keep me honest today
about not being too preachy and it's

just, we're gonna share our experience,
but that's why I said that you, what you

just shared about Faith of Angels is a
really great segue into this because I.

What you've done is everything
that we've talked about on this

podcast for the last two seasons.

And not to say that this is the
end of season two or anything, but

really it comes down to if you can
understand and realize the value

that you have because of the movie
you made, the story you're telling,

whatever it is, look at what can happen.

You can become the number one in,
in a category on Amazon when you

release your DVD without any marketing
spend, without a big campaign.

I think you've posted about
it and I posted about it.

Here we are.

Right.

And I, we don't have millions of
followers, so like here we are.

So what that shows me, and maybe
we kick off with this idea, is that

Hollywood or really the infrastructure
around film needs films more

than we need the infrastructure.

Or maybe it's an equal part thing.

A lot of this we're gonna talk it
through in real time and figure

out what we think about this stuff.

But I think if we realize that if.

Whether it's a festival or an
aggregator or a distributor or

a streamer or a studio, right?

They need product.

If they don't have product, they
don't, they, they can't sell anything

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: the
product they sell is movies, and so they

need us equally as much as we need them.

It has to be a symbiosis thing.

It has to be equally yoked,
wi without the movies.

They don't have anything to sell.

And so that's maybe idea number one.

Instead of thinking like, how do I
get noticed by a studio or a streamer?

What if we flip it?

What if we say that or what if we
realized that they need a constant stream

of new and original and even low cost
independent films in order to stay alive

in order for their business model to work?

How does that change your mindset as
far as the thing you're producing?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Yeah, it's a great point and I,

it is a great mindset, I think,
to recognize the value that you

bring as an independent filmmaker.

That, that you are contributing.

You look at the, uh, last Year's
Academy award, you know, winner,

best picture and several of the
other nominees were, are, they are

independent films and independently
financed and budgeted and written and

completely outside of the studio system.

And yet Hollywood is recognizing that.

Um, so I think that there is value
that that having that independent

mindset, I guess is what you're
saying is that we have to acknowledge

that what are we acknowledging that
we're, that they need independent

film to keep Hollywood afloat or,

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I think so.

I mean, if you think about it, our
work fills the pipeline in some ways.

Granted, they're doing, like, if we're
just talking about Hollywood studios

and streamers, for example, they're,
they're paying for and, and instigating

a lot of the projects themselves, right?

Like Disney is making Disney movies
and Marvel movies and Star War movies.

They're not looking for
indies at festivals.

Right?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
correct.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
where did they find those filmmakers

who are making those movies?

They're not investing in development
in the same way they used to

in the nineties and earlier.

And so where are they going to
get the filmmakers of tomorrow?

It's independent film.

We've seen it time and time again.

The people who are coming up and
directing the next Star Wars movie, the

people that are directing Marvel movies,
the people that are coming up through

the ranks, they started in either.

I can think of examples that came up
through TV and I can think of examples

that came up through independent film
by making something really great.

Uh, Gareth Edwards comes to mind, right?

Like made something really
great independently.

Gets brought up to the
quote unquote big leagues.

And we've talked about this too in a,
in a previous episode, but where are

they getting their talent from because
they're not developing 'em in-house?

Garrett, Edward Edwards didn't come
up through the Star Wars ecosystem.

He came from outside because
he had made something really

valuable in the indie world.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I think that there, yeah, there

are examples in every great, uh,
you know, big ip, collection or

series or whatever it is, trilogy.

Uh, there are examples of that.

Yeah.

You got, Gareth Edwards has done Star
Wars, you get Chloe Jao that does the

Marvel, uh, you know, goes the Marvel way.

Even, uh, Christopher Nolan with
his, you know, indie start, you

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
And following before that?

Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
what's that?

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
following before that.

And you've got, we can list a ton, right?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
he's, and he is doing the

Dark Knight series, you

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
yes, and then interrupted you, but, uh,

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
no, I interrupted you first.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
well, and then even just recently,

Jared Hess, uh, you know, Napoleon
Dynamite to, to Minecraft.

So, Well, I mean, what a great
way that independent film, like we

are fostering the future of these.

You know, large studio needs,
uh, these big IP projects.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

Well, and part of it I talked
about how their model doesn't

support the development of these
filmmakers, like independent films.

And I was talking with someone
the other day and I was just

like, it's two different things.

You, if you're a Hollywood studio, it
kind of, uh, let me back up a second.

It kind of, um.

Echoes this idea in the VC world where
your fund size is, your fund strategy.

That's a common phrase that's used
often, common phrase used often.

How's that for redundant of department
de department of redundancy department.

Okay.

So the idea here is that if you
have $5 billion under management.

The things you invest in are gonna
be very different than if you have $5

million or $500 million under management.

You have to make bigger swings and
you have to invest in things that are

higher budget because in order for you
to get a return for your investors,

you need to make bigger investments.

And so the studios are
kind of the same thing.

They have to make a hundred million dollar
bets because that's the only way you're

gonna get to billion dollar outcomes.

I don't think there's a single example of
an indie, a five or 10 or even $20 million

indie film that's done a billion dollars.

You have some that have done a hundred,
200, 250 million, but not a billion.

And the number of indie
films that break I.

Even nine figures let, or eight figures,
let alone nine figures, is very, very,

very, very small, smaller than the
number of a hundred million dollar movies

that break 500 million or a billion.

And so if you are Disney or Universal
or Warner's, you have to make

those types of investments in order
for your business to make money.

If you, it would require so many more
independent films, then the ecosystem

can even take on, because you can't
release a thousand movies by it

from a single, uh, studio in a year.

But that's what it would take in order,
you know, the numbers work out that way.

Or even a hundred, like if you look
at Universal, they're releasing.

A couple, a few dozen movies a year.

They're not releasing hundreds.

And so the economics of their
business model don't make sense,

doesn't make sense for them to invest
in independent projects anymore.

So we, we need to stop
expecting that they will.

Or that it'll, they'll go back to
the 10 or 20 or $30 million projects

'cause it's not profitable for them.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
It's so much money to a day to keep.

The, um, marketing arm, the p and a
arm of a studio in, in play, right?

And I'm not gonna try to
even pretend like I know.

What the, that cost.

I'm sure I could read it, but just Yes.

And so if you were to turn that focus
onto some little piddly two to $5 million

movie, or $10 million or $20 million
movie, suddenly The, the reality of that

movie generating what you need to pay
for the attention and time of the team

that you've built to market these huge
movies, yeah, it's a no win situation.

Right.

So they're, I think that's why we see
small break offs, you know, like Disney

releasing still through Fox or know,
these, these, classics or whatever

it is, these smaller studios that can
release on a, on a more of a economical.

Uh, platform.

and it can probably target some of these
lower budget films to be able to do that.

I mean, essentially in my mind,
it creates this sort of balance,

this market balance, right?

We've got these in films that typically
have these lower production budgets

uh, they can have a little bit more
flexible distribution strategies

and hopefully the ROA put towards
these, any films of balances out.

Uh, what, you know, what you'd need
for a big ROI on a huge budget movie.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah,
it speaks to who was the guy that

a year or two was saying, you know,
uh, killers of the Flower Moon was a

$200 million movie and we could have
made 20, $10 million movies, or $200

million movies, or whatever it is.

And it's like, well, yeah, we could have.

The people that invested those $200,
$200 million into that movie saw value in

that opportunity, and they don't see the
same value in $200 million Indie films.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: I,
I had a really good meeting this week,

I guess last week, uh, but we haven't
talked about it yet with a, with a

company that wants to invest in film.

Right.

And they said, look, we're a media
company and we're missing a spoke.

Uh, of long, long format, you
know, narrative filmmaking.

We do a lot of YouTube and a lot
of, uh, podcast stuff and, um.

A lot of internet and blog space and
stuff, but we'd like to get into film.

said, okay.

So we started talking about kind
of the budget ranges and we said,

look, I've got, I've got several
scripts and, uh, available and

we can budget them out at about

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Okay.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: each.

uh, you know, for that,
this is what that gets you.

they start, you know, and then we, we also
talked a little bit about p and a, what

would be needed for that, you know, and
say, okay, 2 million movie, you're gonna

want to spend it, you know, at least 50%.

Of the amount of that budget.

So an additional million for p and a if
you wanna do a theatrical release and

have some sort of market penetration.

And they were very, very interested
and very supportive and, and, uh,

the numbers were all working out.

then he said, look, what if you had more,
for your script, what if you had more?

Why couldn't we get a big name
actor or something like that?

And so, just like you're saying about
that, killers of the Flower Moon, 200

million versus, you know, you've got
Martin Scorsese and uh, Leonardo DiCaprio.

I look, could that movie
have been made for less?

maybe.

Absolutely.

may, maybe.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Uh, uh, and so on a very, very
small, uh, mindset of that, they're

asking, Hey, your $2 million
script, could it be made for more?

And the answer is yes.

It could be.

It has to be part of the
whole big picture though.

Like what, what do we get for more?

And can that story support it?

And why would we do that?

Um, and so ultimately all all of
those decisions have to be in play.

I don't know what my point is other than
I, I relate to saying, you know, making a

bigger budget movie isn't necessarily the,
the the right thing to do All the times

there's, there's value in having that
maneuverability of kind of an independent

budget and independent mindset and kind of
the independent recovery that is needed.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
for any film.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: But
you think about it too, like on the

flip side of that is understanding how
they're thinking about it, which is if we

make a two x return on a hundred million
dollars, that's a hundred million dollars

we just made for very simple math, right?

How much would, how many movies
would we have to make in order to

make a hundred million dollars?

Even if you got 10 x instead of two x on a
million dollar movie, you still only got.

$10 million instead of a
hundred million dollars, right?

You have to do that 10 times.

How many million dollar
movies make $10 million?

Right?

It all just starts to break
down when you think about how

they have to think about it.

So a $200 million movie, that's two x
that, that's 200 million to their bottom

line, which helps them be profitable.

They don't have a way to make $200
million on a bunch of indie films.

They just don't.

And so that's why they
don't invest in 'em anymore.

It makes a lot of sense when you
realize the types of, uh, revenues

that they need in order to be not
only profitable but growing quarter

over quarter, because that's their,
that's what they're incentivized to do.

'cause they have
shareholders to report to.

Right.

So just realizing that Hollywood needs
us, um, I don't know if I would say more

than we need them, because that seems.

Precocious or something like, it seems
a little bit too grandiose of the

statement, but I think if we realize
that they also need independent film

just in a different way than directly,
it's indirectly that they need us.

They need filmmakers to be developing
their craft and connecting with

audiences and making good movies,
and that's what helps feed their

business model down the line.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Daren, what is it, um, in your opinion

or in your, your research what.

I'm trying to figure out
how to phrase my question.

You got this a hundred million dollar
movie, and what a great point that, hey,

I can make, if I can turn that into a
profit as a hundred million dollar profit,

what would it take me to to make a hundred
million profit in independent films?

And it's like, oh, that, that
script hasn't been written.

Um, what about the losses, like on that?

What's your take on that?

I'm gonna risk this a hundred
million dollar budget movie.

Put it out there and it does
a full on Joker two flop.

And you go, oh, now, now I'm in trouble.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Yeah, that's part of the deal, right?

Was it Warner's that did?

Joker movies.

I mean, they're killing it right
now with Minecraft and Sinners, and

they killed it the year before with.

Barbie, like, you know, they're, they're
hit and miss, maybe one outta 10 where

they have a, a flop, so to speak, but
they have others that are 10 x-ing or

five x-ing or two x-ing, and they're fine.

Right.

Um, so I think it's part
of the deal, this and.

Part of it is that they have a
much more robust business structure

than independent films do.

Ours are very much like,
sometimes it's a single deal.

We're gonna take it to a festival and sell
it to somebody, and that's a single deal.

And then the movie's done right,
they have so many other ways

of exploiting those properties.

The ip, whether it's through
merch, whether it's through brand

deals, whether it's through theme
parks, whether it's whatever that.

We, we get so myopic about,
oh, it lost money in theaters.

Well, who cares?

Like fall guide did not make
money in theaters, but it made

lots of money in streaming.

Okay.

We don't know how much because they
don't share those numbers, but, you

know, nobody at the end of the day was
losing their job because of Fall guy.

And so obviously it
wasn't that big of a deal.

Um, so I, the way I think about it is
that they probably understand their

business better than I understand their
business, and they realize that one

out of 10, one out of five, whatever
the numbers are, are not gonna hit.

Because if they had figured out how
to make profit on every single movie,

they would've done that by now.

We've had a hundred years in
this industry to crack that nut.

And it goes back to that William Goldman
statement of nobody knows anything.

Um, not nobody knows anything, like people
know a lot of stuff about a lot of things,

but there are a lot of things they can't
know because it requires an, an audience

and their agency to decide whether
they wanna see a movie that weekend.

So.

Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Well, okay.

Well, uh, okay, so one of, one of the
things, uh, I'm gonna shift gears.

Um, that independent film does allow,
because we're not dealing with these

a hundred million dollar budgets,
is a little bit more innovation and

risk taking, on a very low scale.

And, uh, you know, it's kind of this,
um, we have this laboratory for bold

storytelling or unique perspectives,
anonymously, like niche type storytelling

as a, as a faith-based filmmaker.

For a long, a long time, Hollywood as we,
you know, I say in air quotes, was not

interested in, in faith based stories or
faith adjacent stories, um, we're, we're

seeing a change in that now, thankfully.

Um, but I think that that has a lot to
do with this independent film, people

taking risks, uh, without having these
constraints of studio expectations.

are able to pioneer new genres, new
structures, whatever new techniques.

we're gonna shoot this with a lower
budget camera, and then suddenly you get

a big, big, huge budget that's now using
that same camera because it's proven.

I, I, I think just the amount of risk
taking and innovation that we can do,

I think, I think Hollywood needs that
from the independent film market.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

Yeah, there's, I, I use a phrase
on my, my LinkedIn in order to get

people to click on a link and it
says, invest where Hollywood won't.

It's a little bit of a
spicy statement, right?

But I fully believe it, like we
have to, um, invest in the stories

that Hollywood won't invest in.

Otherwise we won't have them.

They won't exist in the world.

So again, you go back to all the
filmmakers you listed that are at

the studio level now, and you realize
that they got their start making,

you know, micro budget movies or
low budget movies or very, or indie

movies that are sub $10 million.

You know, the stuff in the
one to 4 million range.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
And you go, yeah.

So those are some of our favorite movies.

Right?

I think Memento was a $4 million thing.

You've got Sean Favreau and Greta Gerwig
and Edgar Wright and like all these

people that we love watching their
movies now and going, oh yeah, they

started with small stuff, but they came
up with some of my favorite things.

Shauna the Dead, I think was another
one of those that was like $4 million.

Like a studio.

Couldn't have done that movie that
way, and it wouldn't have been

as good if it was a studio movie.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: So.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Last, uh, again, another, another

story not to be self-indulgent.

Last week we had, I had a meeting
or two weeks ago, uh, with a, a, a

distributor that wants to do short films.

They wanna get into short films.

And so they put this kind of an RFP
out to bunch of indie filmmakers, uh,

local filmmakers said, look, we want
short film ideas, um, we will fund.

Short film.

We'll, we'll go through the top
five films that we kind of vote on.

We'll do read through, we're gonna fund.

I was thinking, oh great.

Nobody's ever done this.

This is fantastic.

And then they said the amount that
they're gonna fund the films and the

budgets were, um, really not conducive
to, to being able to make to Um.

And yet we had all these filmmakers
there, you know, and so we're kinda

like, how do we, how do we do that?

How do we communicate to them?

the more I thought about it, the, the
more I realized that this distributor

or this studio probably knows, they
know that it's a challenge for the

independent, for, for any film to be
made for this particular budget amount.

I was thinking, why am I, why, why am I.

Like, why would I waste
my time to do this?

The more I thought about it, I thought,
Hey, this is an opportunity for me

to, if I want to delve into this, you
know, if I want to do some of this,

uh, either risk taking or experimental,
um, you know, maybe I wanna shoot.

I, you know.

I wanna shoot on an iPhone and uh,
see if that, see how that works,

see what I can do with that.

So it became an opportunity where
it was very much probably a, a,

a Hollywood mindset going, how
do we look into independent film?

Now, this is like an independent,
independent film mindset going, how do we

look into this micro, like mini budget?

storytelling and it opened up that
opportunity to say, yeah, I want

to do this because I want to test
things out that might benefit later.

Our, our larger budget indie films.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah,
it's the idea of investing in development.

Like you don't make any money back
from development, but you put aside

10% of your budget for your movie,
for development, whether it's on

that project or on other projects.

All of a sudden you've got
good projects down the line.

It takes a while and it takes some
investment and it's not a direct return.

Like most short, films don't make,
don't have a path to profitability.

They don't make money,

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
And they don't have the budget,

like most of them are not funded.

They're usually like

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Right, exactly.

Like the idea of having a 50 or a hundred
thousand dollars budget for a short film.

I mean, we're starting to see some of
that with like the Angel Guild and their,

their torches that people are investing.

I've, I've seen 50 and a hundred and
$200,000 budgets into those things, but

they have a pretty good idea that they're
gonna do well and get greenlit for a show.

Or a movie and that some of the
footage that they use is gonna

be part of it or whatever it is.

They know that that money
is not wasted money.

But yeah, just a, a random short
film idea that's gonna go on YouTube,

how do you make money on that?

But that kind of leads to another thought
I wanted to bring up is, you know,

where is the leverage with all of this?

Because if we think that Hollywood
holds the keys to the gate, right?

They are the gatekeepers,
they have all the leverage.

We have to, you know, go
with whatever their whim is.

We have to calculate, oh,
what are they into this year?

Is it horror movies?

There's something like 30 horror movies
coming out this year, and historically,

Jason Blum has said this, that the market
really has an appetite for 10 to 12, so

good luck with those other 15 or whatever
that are not gonna, um, land because

there's they oversaturated, they're overs
saturating the marketplace this year.

We'll see how that plays out, but.

Understanding that again, if, if
we see them as the ones holding

the keys to the kingdom, then that
puts us in a a one down position.

Like we have to do
whatever they say and that.

It takes away all the creativity.

It takes away the types of stories we can
tell, and it breaks the whole ecosystem.

Like again, what they need, the
infrastructure of festivals and

distributors and studios and streamers,
whatever aspect of the industry, even

the lenders that are putting money
against minimum guarantees or tax credits

or those types of things, all of that
falls apart if movies don't get made.

So the most valuable thing
in the whole ecosystem.

Is the film, whether it's a studio film,
whether it's any film, whatever it is.

But like if you're a film maker,
if you're a maker of films, you

are making the most valuable part
of that whole, uh, value chain.

And we have to realize that
we have to realize we hold the

value, like we're creating it.

And none of the other things exist
if they're, if movies don't exist,

you can't have a festival without
movies, you can't have lending without

movies, you can't have tax credits.

Without movies, you can't
have international sales and

distribution without movies.

'cause what do they take to the markets?

If they don't have a movie.

So you have the ability, as the
filmmaker, at least this is how I

try to see my position as I'm out
raising money and asking the question

as well, how am I gonna do this?

Where's the leverage?

And if I went into every conversation
saying, please give me money, I

think what I'm gonna do is valuable.

Somehow they would feel
that sense of need.

They would feel that doubt, they
would feel that uncertainty.

And they'd go, yeah, no,
no, thanks Eric, man.

But.

Me going in and saying, this is
the only one of these because it's

me that's in charge of it and I'm
running it and I'm the, you know,

the general partner of this thing.

Like if you want these types
of movies produced by me, this

is the only way to get it.

And I only have room for
five to 10 investors.

I don't have room for a hundred people.

I'm not doing a big crowd fund raised.

It's five to 10 investors or
family offices or whatever it is.

And that flips the switch.

They go, oh, this guy's gonna
do this with or without us.

And if we want to have our name on this,
if we want to be involved with this, then

all of a sudden we better get on board.

We better hurry up and
make a decision here.

And that sort of momentum
carries everything through.

But it started with that mindset
shift of man, it went from me going,

why would anyone ever invest in me?

I've never raised money.

I don't have a proven track record
of 10 X films in the box office.

I don't have those things.

Okay, but what do I have?

I have the leverage
here and here and here.

So I could take that out to the market
and say, here's the opportunity.

And it's a limited time, limited
amount of people all of a sudden

shifts that leverage from them to me.

Right, so that's what I think every
filmmaker has to realize is you hold all

the leverage, you hold all the value.

Your thing is the thing.

Your film is the thing that makes
everything else in the industry work.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that

soundbite and just loop it 'cause
that's a great pep talk right there.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Awesome.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Uh, and, and there's truth to it.

So, um.

Yeah, I don't, I don't have
anything to, to add to that.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
No, that's great.

I was, I spent a little time analyzing
the deal that everybody was talking

about this last month, the Ryan
Kugler deal on sinners and how, how

on earth was he able to pull that off?

Well, I.

It wasn't ne, it wasn't only because
he was a CE successful filmmaker.

He's had, you know, billions of dollars
in box office between Black Panther and

Black Panther Two and Creed and all the
other projects he's been involved in.

Again, started as an indie filmmaker
with Fruitvale Station, right?

So here we go again.

But what has he done over his
career over the last 10, 15 years?

He's built an audience.

He's built people who trust that he's
gonna tell a certain type of story for

a certain subset of people that's gonna
resonate, that's gonna inspire, that's

going to bring that community together.

And all of us on the outsides of that
community are going, this is unique

and I can't see this anywhere else.

And I love this guy's filmmaking,
so I want to go see it too.

And so he has massive success with
sinners over now three weekends.

Um, but everybody was
talking about the deal.

The thing that he realized that
I think speaks to what we're

talking about here today in this
episode is he held the leverage.

If you want Ryan Coogler, there's
one of him, if you want the next

Ryan Coogler movie, there's one
of those things, so he can go and

he's doing it at a different level.

He's going in talking to all the
studios, the big six studios and saying.

I got the next Ryan Kugler movie.

Whereas we might be going to mini measures
or smaller local distributors or TV

networks or whatever it is that we're
going to, but we can do the same thing.

We can say we have the leverage.

There's one of these, we've built
an audience over time, we know that

they're gonna show up and buy tickets.

'cause historically that has been true.

And you can say that
the same thing, Garrett.

'cause you've had how many
movies that you've put in

theaters and people showed up.

So you can go to the next investor
or go to the next distributor and

say, look, every time I've released
a movie, people have shown up.

So it's likely that
they're gonna do it again.

And I've been building my audience.

So it's likely that the audience
is gonna be even bigger next time.

Right.

And you can just keep riding that
train and saying, if you want the next

Garrett Batty movie, you better get on
board because there's only one of 'em.

It's happening right now, and that
little momentum shift is something we can

learn from Ryan, he did the same thing.

He said, I have the leverage.

You want the movie, you need movies.

If you want the next Ryan Kler
movie, it's gonna make money for you.

It's either you or one
of your five competitors.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
And so he was able to craft an

even stronger deal for himself.

Where it's like the rights revert
back and he's getting first dollar

gross and all these other things
because he had the leverage.

So if we can take that same lesson from
Kler, we're gonna be way better off.

And what does it do
for everybody involved?

It makes the, um,
enterprise more profitable.

It's like gonna be a very, very profitable
movie for Warners, for him, for everybody

involved because he did this strategy.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
So in order to get that leverage,

what's the, yeah, I guess that's
where we're at is independent film,

developing that skillset, building
that audience, creating that following.

So that, that's a, that's a talking
point and a and a point of interest for.

Bigger and bigger investors.

Is that right?

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I think so.

I think it goes back to this idea too,
of being so good they can't ignore you.

Which is a book by Cal Newport, and
a statement made by Steve Martin

when he was, everybody asked him
like, how do you become a, an actor?

How do you make it in Hollywood?

How do you get your break?

And he says, well, you become
so good, they can't ignore you.

And it's like, it's, it's hard
because how do you measure that?

But we all know that 10 or 15 or 20
indie filmmakers that are now directing

studio movies, so that's the bar.

You gotta make those kind of indie movies.

You have to make 'em that good.

The, the, the Ryan Johnsons and
the Greta Gerwig and the John

Favres and all those directors that
are now doing it in the studio.

They became so good that the
studios could not ignore, man.

What if we gave Greta Gerwig
a hundred million dollars

budget and let her do Barbie?

What would that look like?

Oh, the billion dollar box office.

That's what it would look like, right?

So you have to prove.

With your craft and your talent
and your films and the stories you

make and the way that you make 'em,
that you are so good that they can

no longer ignore that you exist.

They can no longer ignore your call
when your agent calls them to take

a meeting because you just did Lady
Bird or because you just did Memento

or because you just did whatever.

So I think it starts there.

I think it starts with you
have to make the choice of.

Well, let's put it this way too.

The caveat of that is, or the
opposite of that is the industry

doesn't owe you anything.

So just because you wanna be a filmmaker
doesn't mean that you get an audience.

You're not just gifted it on your
way in, it's not like a monopoly.

You go around, you know, pass,
go, collect $200, there's no gar,

there's nothing is owed to you.

So you've gotta earn all of it.

But if you keep going and keep
going and keep going, you can do it.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Um, okay.

Uh, Daren, I, I've, uh,
covered my talking points.

We talked about audience engagement, the,
you know, in community building we talked

about economic, you know, that balance,
talent discovery or career launch pad,

and then the innovation and risk taking.

And we also mentioned diverse voices.

Um, so all incredible values that
independent film affords us, and we, I

believe is, are things that Hollywood
needs from the independent film market

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
in addition to film.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

No, I feel like I've
said more than my piece.

Um, I think if we can just realize
that if we, going back to this

big idea of building an audience,
if you shift who you serve, I.

Then the people you ultimately wanna
work with as well will start showing up.

So if you serve the audience,
you're gonna build an audience.

And that's how you become so good that
the studios can't ignore you anymore.

But if you keep trying to just
serve the infrastructure or the

studios or the streamers at the
I, uh, ignoring the audience, I

think that's not the way to go.

So that's our, that's maybe the
last mindset shift for today.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: well
you've done, you've summed up exactly

what, uh, I was, my response to them.

The, the, the people with
whom I met the investors said,

well, what if you had more?

What if you had 10 million?

Uh, instead of this $2 million
movie, what if you had 10?

And, um.

I said, okay, well let me take
a look and think about that.

I'm meeting with them this week
my response is a three year plan

to them and say, look, here's
where 10 million gets you.

Let's make the first $2 million movie
and market it, and then follow that up

on the heels with a $4 million movie.

And now it's generating,

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: I'm
probably just describing your film fund,

but uh, know, in three years I said that
$10 million won't be a $10 million thing.

It'll be a $30 million.

I.

Uh, budget that you'll want to
now put into our next series.

So we've got two films a year and
a series, so we'll build that.

Um, so that I, I get to go back
and pitch that on Wednesday.

And, uh, this, discussion has, has fueled
that enthusiasm for this discussion.

I'm gonna

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Awesome.

Well then it was timely and inspired.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
timeline

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Oh,

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Thank you.

Well done as always.

Good.

Anything else going on?

Anything else we need to cover?

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I don't think so.

We're gonna save some of the
breaking news of this week for

a future episode maybe, but

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
talking about tariffs, is it?

By

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Oh gosh.

The, the Trump foreign film Tariffs is
those That's what you're talking about?

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
All right.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Everybody stop freaking out.

They're not real.

He just,

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
We're, thank goodness we're

not a Breaking News podcast,

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: yes.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
an opinion podcast and so,

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307: we'll
definitely have an opinion about that

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Well, and if, if those types of

tariffs are implemented, it will have
a very big impact on our industry.

Um, I just, I'm not taking a lot of
time and energy out of my day to think

about it because it's not real yet.

So if and when it becomes legislation,
we can look at it then, but we have

zero details as to what they are and
what they mean and how they're gonna

be implemented and what applies.

And so I just.

I read it and I thought about
it for about two minutes, and

then I stopped thinking about it

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
I, uh, I'll reserve my opinion

for the Future podcast.

If you wanna preview of my opinion,
you can go to tariffs aren't real.com.

All

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: you.

garrett-batty_1_05-06-2025_111307:
Alright, uh, uh, Daren, thank you.

Great episode.

And thank you to our listeners.

Uh, it, it has been so nice to
be able to, to be able to talk

with so many of you and hear your
questions and comments and feedback.

Please continue to send
those in, keep those coming.

daren-smith_1_05-06-2025_111307: Awesome.

If you guys are having conversations about
indie film, please share the podcast with

your friends and those conversations.

'cause we like having
the conversations too.

If you have questions, shoot 'em over.

You can go check out three
coin pro.com/podcast.

There's a way to submit questions
that we can answer on the podcast

and we'd love to hear your thoughts.

So let us know.

Thanks for listening.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

questions about today's episode.

Head over to 3coinpro.

com slash podcast.

And put in your name and an email address.

If you're a fan of the show, please
leave us a review on your favorite

podcast app and be sure to share this.

Thanks for listening.

And we'll see you next week.

Our intro and outro music is
election time by Kjartan Abel.