Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
platforms, reward creators.

Who post short frequent content,
but that's the opposite of how

independent filmmaking works.

How are we supposed to play the
algorithm game we're releasing

one film every two years?

Well, that's easy.

Just release, uh, one
film every three months.

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Garrett, my friend.

How the heck are you?

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Hey, Daren.

Good.

I'm doing really well.

It's nice to see you.

How

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Nicest to you as well.

I'm great.

I, I've been working out the last
month and a half and I feel wonderful.

So, back to the gym.

It's been really nice.

I saw you there one day.

You're playing pickleball.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah,
I'm, I'm down there a lot doing some

pickleball and uh, that's a good, it's
a good thing to do in the mornings,

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: It
is good thing to do in the mornings.

Well.

Today I'm excited because we
have like a mailbag episode.

We've got some listener questions
that have been piling up, and rather

than tack 'em on at the end of an
episode, it felt like, well, why

don't we do 'em all together so
we can get a couple of topics that

typically, or maybe don't go together.

Let's put 'em together today.

And so I'm excited.

We got three questions and
we're gonna dive into these.

What do you think?

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
I, I'm, I'm thrilled.

I'm thrilled that people are
taking the time to listen and to

ask questions and send comments.

So thank you to those who are
doing that and keep it up.

Uh, 'cause they are fun to, fun to address
and hopefully we can address them all.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Yeah, well, uh, the, I think the theme

here is like, how do you do this?

And so I love that we have become kind
of a podcast where people are trusting

us with these kind of questions.

And so I'm excited to dive in.

Why don't we look at the first one?

Um, our, our first topic is around ai.

So the question is, I've heard a
lot about AI tools, streamlining,

streamlining production, but where
do you draw the line between useful

automation and losing creative control?

How do truly independent
filmmakers stay in charge?

Nice nod there.

How do truly independent
filmmakers stay in charge?

Um, do you wanna kick this off?

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: sure, yeah.

Yeah, it's a good question and, having
not been in production ai, uh, I

don't know that I'm the best person
to answer this from my own experience.

I've got theories I can tell you right now
in development, um, and pre-production.

AI has been an incredible
tool and, um, I think in any.

In any case, whether you're using a,
uh, an intern or an expert, uh, you

know, the, the role of creative control.

If the question is how do we
lose, how do we use sort of help

without losing creative control,
think that you get to decide that.

Um, so you get to, you get to limit
the input or accept the input from

others, uh, to make sure that it's
matching your creative vision.

I, I think AI is, is the same.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah,
the, I, I took some time to really

think this one out and figure what's
a, what's an encapsulation like, what's

a one-liner people could tattoo on
their arms or something like that.

Right?

And so what I came up
with is that AI is a tool.

Not a voice.

So we're not inviting AI into
the room and saying, please

create this final output for me.

Please don't, don't write the script.

Don't film the thing.

Or generate the imagery.

Like that's the craft.

That's the stuff that we love to
do and, and is why we do this work,

because we love making movies.

We love making movies.

We also love watching movies and
producing movies and doing all the things.

But the making is the human
element that we like, like don't.

Take that away from us, but if it can
make it more efficient, what if we could

do the same amount of work in eight
hours a day instead of 12 hours a day?

I think everybody would be for that.

Right.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: And
so the same thing of like, you look

along the the history of film and we
went from film to digital and that sped

things up and it saved and cut costs.

We went from analog editing
to digital editing platforms.

Nobody complained because it still
required a human operator to go in.

Now, I think once you get to the point
where instead of making your prompting,

I don't think prompting is the same.

I've done a lot of prompting over the
last few months to try to figure out

how AI works and to really cement, or
at least kind of give myself an idea

of what I think about this stuff.

So really it's about this idea
of like the creative sovereignty.

We want to own the creativity.

If we then can make the arduous stuff
or the stuff that takes longer, not

take as long because of an AI tool.

Great tools are good things.

That's what craftsmen use
is tools to do the work.

But nobody wants an AI generated chair.

That doesn't have the same value
as a craft, a handmade crafted

with by hand and tools chair,
there's just a different thing.

Even if they look and feel and
measure exactly the same, there's

something different about it.

And I think we need to make,
uh, keep that in mind when it

comes to how we're using ai.

So again, AI is a tool, not a voice.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: I think
it's a smart thing to do, Daren.

And that would've then, then you'd
have to ask, who is the voice?

And the voice is, that's the
creator, that's the director

or the producer, whoever's the
creative person involved in this.

What I've used ai, uh, let's see.

I was recently asked to participate
in a, A short film for consideration.

There's a, there's a studio that
wants to create a bunch of short film

ideas, uh, fund some short films.

And so I went to AI and said, I've got
a, you know, this budget and I need to

shoot a film in, you know, a day or two.

uh, give me, and, you know, and
here's some, here's some ideas or

elements that I'm playing with.

Gimme five.

Brainstorm ideas on just kind of log
lines on films and I found a couple

that, that were interesting to me.

Like, okay, yeah, that's kind of in
line with what I'm trying to create.

And so, okay, let's explore this story.

And we used AI to do this.

Now my theory is that if put 10
directors in a room and said, make a

short film with these parameters, I
found some web results I can show them.

If you ask, I dunno if you
hear my Siri going off, but.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: AI is
working in the background as we speak.

Are you even real Garrett?

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: I know

if you put 10 directors in the room
and gave them the, the task to make

a short film and said, Hey, make
I AI part of your process, you are

still going to get 10 different films
because the creative process isn't.

overtaken you're using a tool.

I guess that's exactly what you're saying.

I'm just reiterating that.

so even if we're saying, Hey, hey, I
write the script, you get 10 different

scripts and you can get things
that resonate with the director.

Like, where is my voice in that?

Okay, well I want to change this
or reuse this character or even

fix this loophole or pot point.

And so that is the creative
and, and I think that that's.

Just, just like a Hollywood studio using
a reader sort through potential projects.

Very, very similar process.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: I just
read a post on LinkedIn the other day

where someone in a studio position was
basically saying, it's already here.

Like AI is writing scripts,
AI is reading scripts.

AI is giving feedback
on scripts, and then.

Studio exec are using AI to make
decisions on the scripts for viability

and for market valuation and all that
kind of stuff, like it's already here.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
But ultimately, right, the

decision is not being made by ai.

They might be informing the decision,
they might be giving you clarity

faster, but, um, I don't know.

I, for me, the idea of a, an AI
generated script is it, it can only be.

Iterative, right?

It's not creation because they don't
create, they search the LLM all the

history and all the data that they
have, and then they're quickly putting

together exactly what you want.

And if you don't like it, it
regenerates a different thing.

That might be what you want,
but it's compiling from the

existence of what's out there.

Yes, it could be argued that we do the
same because we are, are being informed

by the movies we like and the movies
we watch and the scripts we read and

the things that resonate with us, but.

Ultimately, then we take our lived
experience and we apply all of

that taste to the current project.

There's this, um, quote that I love
from Derek Sivers, who's a guy that

I, I read all his books and love
the way he thinks about the world.

And I, I think we can interject
something about AI in this,

'cause I think he said it before.

AI was a huge, you know, like top
of mind thing in the, in our, in

our culture, Derek s says mastery.

Is the best goal because
the rich can't buy it.

The impatient can't rush it.

The privileged can't inherit
it, and nobody can steal it.

You can only earn it.

Mastery is the ultimate status.

So as a someone who has craftsman
branding all over, like, that's my

business, that's my license plate.

Like Craftsman is the thing that
tries to keep me in line with like

the vision and the goal that I have.

And a master craftsman like is a thing,
and a, an AI can't become one because

they're not actually doing the work.

They're not getting the
lived experience of mastery.

And so I think we're always gonna
be able to sniff out an AI generated

script because it's not gonna
be human and it wasn't earned.

It was something that was just taken
and compiled and structured based on

everything else that already exists.

So I don't know.

That's, that's kind of where I'm at on it.

I'm sure there are people, I know
there are people out there making AI

generated scripts and AI generated
movies, and so far I haven't been

convinced that any of them are
good from what I've seen and read.

But it'll get better.

This, I always tell people this,
today is the worst it'll ever be.

It'll only keep getting better.

So

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
that for what you, what you want.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Yeah, I don't feel threatened yet.

By ai, I mean, I'm, it's a tool for
me and it's been very, very helpful.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

All right.

Awesome.

I think we

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: question.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
put a good button on that one.

Yes.

All right.

You want to hit us with
question number two?

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Uh, question
number two that came in, uh, also a,

so we got the three A questions here.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
uh, algorithms, most

platforms, reward creators.

Who post short frequent content,
but that's the opposite of how

independent filmmaking works.

How are we supposed to play the
algorithm game we're releasing

one film every two years?

Well, that's easy.

Just release, uh, one
film every three months.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Or every
week like the algorithm asks you for.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
No, uh, what a great question.

What a, what a frustrating furious battle
we're in as independent filmmakers,

because we essentially start a business,
operate it for 18 months to two years,

and then end the business and the, the
tail of the business, you know, has about

a seven year shelf life on that film.

audience hype and interest and
you know, uh, the peak for that

is, yeah, it's another, it's
six months to to to two years.

And, uh, I mean, how
long can you milk that?

Plus how long can it sustain you?

so great, great question on the algorithm
thing, and again, you're asking somebody

that doesn't have a ton of experience
in that, Daren, I'm sure you have a

lot more experience in that than I do.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Well, I mean, we're, we're

kind of living the answer.

I think, you know, we've, we faced the
same sort of tension, um, last year when

we said we're gonna release these movies.

We need an audience to show up.

How are we gonna do that?

How are we gonna engage people?

How are we gonna let 'em know this movie
is coming without a massive budget and.

You know, I saw this question come in and
I'd heard variations of this where people

are lamenting, like YouTube and Instagram,
they reward daily or weekly uploads.

Like, what are we supposed to do
Our, our movies are long form,

and they come out every two years.

It's like, oh man.

Well, a lot of filmmakers do it by
doing, by solve it, by doing nothing.

They just go, well, I'm not gonna
do daily videos 'cause that I'm a

filmmaker, or I'm not gonna do weekly
uploads because I'm a filmmaker.

It's like, well.

There probably is a way for you to
come up with something that's valuable

to your audience that also generates
awareness and creates tension for them

wanting to see the thing you're making.

And I love the way that people
have, uh, shared this idea,

which is like, sell the sawdust.

So as you're, this is going back
to the craftsman analogy, right?

But like, if you're making a table,
there's a whole bunch of scraps,

there's a whole bunch of sawdust,
there's a process that's going on.

And that is something that's really
interesting to the people that

will show up and watch your movie.

So if you had behind the scenes updates
every week, if you had images from set

or a blog post once a week or whatever
it is, maybe you don't have time to

do a video or hire a team to do behind
the scenes for you every week, but

you can use the resources you have.

And I mean, when we were on
set at the Carpenter, we were.

Filming videos, you know, like once a
day or once a week, we would you just pop

it up and go, Hey, let's do an update.

It's like, great, let's do that.

And those things generated
awareness for a movie that wasn't

gonna come out for two years.

But I know that there were people
that were anxious that entire time.

It may have just been my dad.

I'm sure there's more than one person,
but still like I know that there were

people who saw your posts, saw the like,
saw the behind the scenes and going,

wow, that looks like an incredible set.

Wow, those look like amazing costumes.

Wow.

Look at the location that they're at
and go, I can't wait to see this movie.

So.

I would say like build kind of a
content flywheel around the film.

As soon as you have the idea, I would
start talking about it in the sense of,

I think this is my next project and I'm
gonna bring you along on the journey.

And guess what?

You don't need a million people if you're
doing a short film, you don't need $10

million in box office if you spent a
hundred thousand to make the movie.

Like you can use the
resources that you have.

Generate awareness and build that
audience, um, and use the algorithm

the way that it's intended to be
used, which is defeat it, right?

It needs to be fed every day,
every week you can come up with

ideas that will serve both sides.

One is helping you feed the algorithm,
reach more people, build your audience.

The other is, you know, getting
the reward of the algorithm because

you're feeding it every day.

So that's how I would approach it.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: I think
one of the best examples of that

that I've, or, uh, I guess there
are multiple, numerous examples of

that, but, uh, one that stands out
to me is, uh, the chosen series.

And I know we talk a lot about faith-based
content on this podcast just by the

nature of the type of movies that I make.

But, um, you, you can watch,
uh, Dallas Jenkins, a creator

of the chosen, uh, doing.

Live feeds from set.

And even, you know, right now they're
in and early production on season

five or season six, excuse me.

And you're starting to see these behind
the scenes posts, just like you're

talking about, you know, with what we
do with the carpenter, that, you know,

for a series that has full year gaps
between releasing a, you know, a, a

season, There is constant, there is
a constant stream of media generated

from whatever stage they're in.

Um, yeah, that's a, that's a
great, uh, evidence of that

working to feed that algorithm.

Um, I, the, the only pushback I
is, there's the risk of, again, the

buzz, creating the hype, and then I.

Like the project bailing,
you know, you start to be the

boy that cried wolf, right?

And say, Hey, here's a new mo.

Here's my next film, and it's this one.

And then you don't have
investment or whatever it is.

Uh, you know, or another project
or work for higher gig comes along

and you don't do that and suddenly
your audience is kinda getting

whiplash and you start to risk.

I don't know.

I think you risk reputation to always
be the hype man and never deliver.

And

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: you gotta
make sure that, that it still has some

sort of calendar of progress or like,
yeah, maybe you don't say, here's my

next film until you reach at the certain
threshold of funding or of actually

that actually being your next film.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Yeah, definitely like lean

towards telling the truth online.

'cause if you're, if one of your
values is over-hyping your projects

before they're released, then yeah,
people are gonna sniff that out and go,

well I, you know, I got fooled once.

I don't wanna be fooled again.

That's a terrible way
to build an audience.

So it much better to change
the positioning instead of

saying, this is my next project
and it comes out in two years.

This is what I'm working on today.

And tomorrow might be
different, and that's okay.

But you know, you every, every
business, every influencer,

every whatever, starts at zero.

Right.

And so Dallas Jenkins, I don't know
what he was doing before the chosen,

but now he's got almost 500,000 people
on Instagram, two and a half million

followers for the chosen series.

They had to add those one by one just like
we all do, and you can accelerate it by

having a good project that people like.

You can accelerate it by putting
money behind audience acquisition.

But in the meantime, like
every creator, every filmmaker.

I think should be doing something
to benefit from all the upside

that an algorithm can give you,
because algorithms are amplifiers.

So if you have something valuable, I.

The job of the algorithm is to put
it in front of the people that thinks

that will also find it valuable, and
that's a really free, cheap way to

build and expand and grow your audience.

But you have to be using it.

You have to be working with
it in order to get that.

Like you can't just, I.

Put a movie online and expect demand
to be created because you put a movie

online, it has to come from the the
time that you spent with the algorithm,

feeding it over and over and over again,
so it knows who you are and it knows

who to put your stuff in front of.

So it can do that consistently.

I mean, if we just zoom out for
two seconds and realize like, what

is the purpose of an algorithm?

It's to keep people on that
platform for as long as possible.

That is its purpose.

And so if you can feed it stuff
that gets people to engage and stick

around for longer, they can sell
more ads, they can make more money.

Hopefully they share some of it with
you, but then they're going to keep doing

that for you because you are keeping
people on the platform for longer.

So it actually benefits from long form.

If you can do it consistently.

So it doesn't necessarily have to be the
32nd reels with the dance videos, you can

put out a three or five or, I mean, we put
out 40 minute podcasts every week, but the

algorithm, algorithm rewards by putting it
in front of new people every day because

it, we get like 80, 90, a hundred, a
hundred, sometimes 120% retention because

people are going back and watching stuff.

So if you put value out there, the
algorithms are gonna amplify it.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: I am gonna
rewind this section and watch it again.

Daren.

That was good content right there.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Awesome.

My goal is to only say good content.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Good content.

I think I broke the creator
rule by calling it content, so

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: You did.

You did, but I'm, I'm not gonna be
a word Nazi and, and say Stop using

content, because especially when we're
talking about short form and social

media stuff, that is really content.

It's, it's not necessarily the main
thing that we as filmmakers are trying to

create, but we understand the purpose that
it has and where it fits in this flywheel

of like, how do we generate awareness
that turns into sales, that turns into the

next project over and over and over again.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Uh, wonderful.

Great, great, great input.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: I
feel, sometimes, and I, I can

relate to those that I've got
plenty of friends that have just.

Bailed out on, on, uh, the algorithm,
you know, and said, look, you know, I.

They're directing movies for
Hallmark, or I've got a showrunner

that's a buddy and, uh, a buddy
that's a showrunner for a popular,

ironically popular YouTube series.

Uh, he, uh, he's, you know, he's,
he's done with Facebook, done with

social media is like, I just don't
want to be part of that anymore.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
uh, so that's fine too.

I can, I could relate to that and
say, you know what, eh, I don't know.

How do you release a movie?

And, and I guess, you know, if
Hallmark is releasing your movie.

You're not the one that's
driving the, the views anyways.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: so
maybe that's the luxury of, of, uh,

not having to build an audience.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Yeah, definitely.

But then, you know, the flip side
is what happens when you're no

longer directing for Hallmark?

Like where, where do you have any
ownership or direct contact with an

audience that can support your work if you
don't build it while you're doing that?

That isn't to say you have
to be on social media.

I always propose, like I propose
that people build email lists.

To me, that's the most direct.

Non algorithmic de non algorithm dependent
way of connecting with an audience.

But I get it too.

I've turned off essentially all social
media except for LinkedIn and even then

LinkedIn isn't fun to scroll, so it's,
it's a really great, like I can go on

and I can share something every day
that's hopefully valuable to an audience.

I've had times where, you know,
my average post will get a

thousand or 2000 impressions.

I've had some that have done a
hundred thousand because they took

off and a lot of people reposted them.

A lot of people engaged and
commented and all those things.

So my time on this platform is to
go in and engage with the audience

that's engaging with the content.

I don't really care about the
people who haven't seen the content

or don't care about the content.

I'm there to build
relationships with people.

But guess what?

You start real relationships with people
and all of a sudden they want to have

more interest in what you're doing.

They come to your website, they follow
along, they join your email list, they

join your communities, whatever it is,
and those are the things you can build

while you are doing the main thing,
which for me is raising a fund for you

is getting the next project going, but
you know, if it, if you can do it in 15

or 30 minutes a day, why wouldn't you?

That's kind of my stance right now is.

Ignoring it is, is perilous.

So you gotta do something to build an
audience because I think in the future

that's really all we're gonna have.

Like if you think content is
crazy now, how much noise there

is and the the millions of
minutes that are uploaded every.

You know, every second to YouTube.

It's only gonna get worse when you can
have AI generate your weekly content

for you, because it's trained on your
face and your voice and your topics,

and you just say, put out 40 reels this
week, and it generates it in 30 seconds.

It's just gonna get noisier.

So the only thing we have, and this
maybe takes us really nicely to our

third and final question, but it
really, it really points to the fact

that you're gonna need an audience.

So why don't we hit the
third question right there.

Audience building I make,

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: The third a.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: yeah.

The third, A, so we have ai,
algorithms and audience building.

I'm making work, I believe in.

But it's barely getting seen.

How do you build an audience when
you don't have a big marketing

budget or a recognizable name?

Not to just like sit with the weight
of that, but honestly, I feel that so

strongly because that's the thing I
probably see the most in our audience that

reach out to us and engage with us online
is just I this, um, the weight of it.

Like, how do, I don't, this
isn't what I signed up for.

I just wanna make movies.

I just wanna shoot things.

I just wanna direct things.

I just want to act.

Why do I have to do this as well?

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Great question.

Yeah.

And I think that's a question
we all want to solve.

Um, now the, okay, so do you, we
might lose listeners on this answer.

We might lose our listener on this answer.

Uh, but I would look at the
first part of that question.

To answer the second part.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Ooh.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: making work I
believe in, but it's barely getting seen.

How do you build an audience?

When you don't have a big marketing
budget or recognizable name, my question

for the filmmaker, and that's the,
that's the conundrum of an artist.

believe in it, but who else does?

I'm making work that I believe in.

Great.

You are your audience, so that's,
that's who you're making it for.

If nobody's watching your work, you've
got to figure out how to find that

balance of how do I make work that
other people believe in, or how do

I get people to believe in my work?

you've said it a million times on this
podcast, you have to say, well, and

I still can't even quote it, right,
but it's like, create something that's

overvalued or undersold or sell it to
somebody who values what you're doing.

Right?

If you're making, uh, I had a somebody
reach out, uh, and they, had a, uh, let's

just say it's a, it's a film festival type
movie, targeted at Christian audiences.

And it was full of, it was full.

It was about, it was about a photographer
that wanted to take, uh, pictures

of, of, uh, you know, human form.

and he couldn't figure out why the, why.

I, I, I think he knew why the audience
wasn't responding, why the Christian

audience wasn't responding to this idea.

But he wanted, you know, he was like,
uh, I just, I just had to make it.

That's, that's fine.

You had to make it.

But you gotta know your audience

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: and
at some point, as an artist, you

gotta figure out how to balance it.

Am I gonna, am I just
gonna make this for myself?

Great.

Do it or do I want an audience?

Okay, great.

What are they watching?

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Yeah, I
have a lot of thoughts on this question.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Okay.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Okay.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
they, hopefully they kind

of align with what I've said

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
I think so.

I think so.

You definitely need to know your audience.

So step one or part one of my answer
is, um, you need to understand the

audience you're actually trying to build.

So I've had, uh, three people
this last week ask about

validating a project before.

You make it.

And I was like, man, it's really hard.

'cause one of them specifically was like,
I've put it in front of hundreds of au

my audience members and they all want it.

I said, great.

But they're not your audience right now.

Your first audience is the investors.

Right?

And if you can't get
investors to pay for it.

Or the audience to come up with enough
money to self-fund it or to fund it.

From the audience side, you still
don't have a project, you don't

have something you can sell.

So part of it is really
understanding who your audience is.

And for a lot of us, the first
audience that we, and maybe even the

only audience we need is investors.

So do you need a million people on
Instagram to follow you in order to get.

One or five or 10 investors
to invest in your project.

No, like I, I think that act maybe
even distracts you from the actual work

of what you need to be focusing on.

And so if you shift that focus
from, I need a million people

to follow me in order to be
successful, to I need 10 investors,

that's a very different process.

Way forward.

Right.

You can go get 10 people this week because
you could just talk to a hundred of them

that have historically invested in film.

And say, I have a film like
the one you invested in.

Are you looking to do more?

My guess is you, uh, if you messaged
a hundred people and we're human and

not just treating 'em like a bank,
you could connect with a hundred

people, talk to 10 or 20 or 30 of
'em and get five to 10 to invest.

Like, that's just the way that I kind
of see the, the process of fundraising.

So one is, part one is like
you don't need millions.

You didn't, you need.

10 or a hundred or a thousand
or whatever it may be.

If you're gonna do the crowdfunding
route, you need a hundred

dollars from a thousand people.

Okay, so go do that, and then
you have a hundred thousand to

make your movie or whatever.

It's so, uh, part one.

Figure out who your audience
actually is and go to them

first and build that audience.

Um, you know, right now to give you
like, the example of how I'm implementing

that feedback is I'm building an email
list of 2,500 email or 2,500 investors.

I'm met about 300 and I've, that's 300
people I've met, have had conversations

with and said, you know, if you wanna
follow along with what we're doing,

I'll put you on the email list.

You get an email update every
week with what we're doing.

And you know, out of those.

300 or so, I've got half a dozen
that have invested in the fund.

So you just keep going
until you have enough.

You just keep the work, keep continues.

Um, I'd love to have 2,500 at some point
in the next few years that are, 'cause if

you can put, you know, a thousand dollars
average investment across 2,500 people.

You can go make movies
for the rest of your life.

Like, that's, that's it, right?

So that's part one.

The part two though is a lot of people
think that the content they have to put

out is about the project, meaning selling
the project, not just giving updates on

it, like we were talking about during
the algorithm answer, but that the only

thing they put out in the world is, I
need this, this is what I need right now.

I need investors.

I need connections.

I'm looking for this.

I'm looking for this.

I need a distributor, and
it's all like, I need this.

That's just not great
positioning when you're putting

content out on the internet.

And so what I consult with, with people
on is what's the story behind this?

What's the, the tension you can
create by telling a story about a

bigger picture than just your project?

Right?

So you and I encapsulate this
by talking about being truly

independent and the people that
also want to be truly independent.

Feeling the tension of like, Ooh,
I wanna listen to that episode.

Ooh, that sounds like a podcast
I wanna, uh, engage with because

I want that outcome as well.

So we're talking about this big idea
rather than our specific projects.

Even though the first season was
talking about our specific projects,

it was all under this big umbrella
of we're sharing how we're trying

to become truly independent.

That was kinda the framing
for that first season.

So if you can make it easy for people
to follow your story, I think audience

growth becomes easier because now instead
of, um, trying to convince people to

follow along, instead you're creating
tension that pulls them towards you.

And in my experience, over 15 years
of doing this online stuff, that's a

lot easier when you've got something
people want and so they come and get it.

Then audience growth is fun
instead of arduous work every day.

So I'll pause there 'cause I've
already said a lot of words, but

how does that resonate with you?

Because I don't think you, you and
I have had this conversation before.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Oh, it's, it's fine.

And, and I gotta confess that in,
while in, during your answer, my

mind was try, I tried to put myself
in the place of a listener to truly

independent say, look, what, what
does this have to do with filmmaking?

Like, I wanna know independent filmmaking.

And, uh, I'm sure we can
tie this all in, but.

A, a lot of this isn't, this
isn't like the creative.

I wanna wake up and, and get creative
and be on set and make a movie.

So why are we covering this on
independent, demystifying the

independent filmmaking process?

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Because if you don't do it

yourself, then you are dependent
on someone else doing it for you.

So going back to your Hallmark
Director friend, if they don't build

an audience, then they're completely
reliant on Hallmark calling them.

To produce or direct the next movie and
completely reliant on their audience

showing up and liking that movie.

And they have zero interaction,
zero control, zero leverage to be

able to, to affect that in any way.

And so the opposite, if
you choose not to do it.

If you don't build an audience, then
you are dependent on someone else's

audience because that's ubiquitous.

If you make something, a film, a TV
show, a made for TV movie, a short

film, whatever it is, it cannot be
profitable if there's no audience for it.

Even if that audience is one patron, like
the guy who bought the Wu-Tang Clan album

for $2 million, like that's an audience of
one, but they still required an audience

for that thing to sell and make money.

So.

You have to have an audience, whether
it's yours or or someone else's.

And so if you are not truly independent
by creating your own audience, then

you're dependent on a distributor,
a studio a, a sta, a network, a

streamer, and their audience to show up.

But we constantly have examples
of, of filmmakers who are going,

oh, if I can just get my movie on
Netflix, then I'll be profitable.

And then they make $75,000.

And you're like, but, but, but it had.

13 million watch hours, 13
million people watch that thing.

Where's the money?

Well, that's the trade off is you said,
well, yeah, Netflix has 250, 300 whatever

million subscribers all over the world,
and we had 13 million people show up.

Well, if you had 13
million people in theaters.

That'd be $130 million, but in
on Netflix it represents $75,000.

So that's the trade off.

If you don't build your own audience,
then you're reliant on someone else's

and they have all the leverage, which
means they get to pay you cents on

the dollar for every stream or every
hour watched or whatever it is.

They get to make up the terms for how
you get paid for the thing that you made.

All of that is not interesting to
us because we are pursuing this

idea of being truly independent.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Well, you,
you tapped into, uh, what I've been

researching a lot on this week is those
kind of streaming rates and A VOD and tvo.

D and svo, and I know that that
wasn't your, your, um, that wasn't.

What the question was,
that's where my mind went.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557:
Well, and that's a good teaser

for next episode because I do
think we're gonna dive into that.

It's a very essential thing for, you
know, again, truly independent means you

understand the numbers, you understand
distribution, you understand windows,

you understand why you would go, I.

One place and not another place
because of how it trickles

down to you and your investors.

And so maybe that's where we leave
it today is, you know, a little

tee up for the next episode.

But is there anything else you wanted to
say about these three as AI algorithms and

audience building before we wrap up today?

Oh, I did the thing you're not supposed
to say wrap up or in conclusion, or

n nearing the end of this podcast.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: Uh,
no, I, I, I think we've covered it.

Uh, again, thank you for the questions.

Uh, we just love, again, interacting
with, uh, our listeners and.

And, um, hearing from you and hearing
your experiences and we try to

have you on the show when we can.

And so thanks for continuing
to support this, this podcast.

daren-smith_1_05-13-2025_103557: Awesome.

Awesome.

Now, if you want to help us
build our audience, share

this episode with a friend.

That's how it works, folks.

One person at a time.

So go ahead and share it.

Leave us a nice review on Apple
Podcasts or on here on YouTube.

Garrett, I like that one.

We should do these more often.

I like the mailbag.

garrett_1_05-13-2025_103557: The Mailbags.

Okay, let's do it.

Thanks.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

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Thanks for listening.

And we'll see you next week.

Our intro and outro music is
election time by Kjartan Abel.