Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
the audience is screaming at creators

for what they want and those who
recognize it and give them that are

gonna be the winners of the day.

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
welcome back everybody.

We got another episode of
Truly Independent Today,

Garrett, it's good to see you.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Daren, good to see you.

Thank you.

looking forward to another week and I'm
looking forward to this exciting episode.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Me too, because we have a guest

I love when we have guests.

Steven.

Hey man.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Hey everybody.

How are you?

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Welcome to the show, Steven Murray.

We are so excited to have you.

We chatted with you last week.

As, as a, uh, threesome, throuple here.

We had a conversation, let's not go
there, but we had a great conversation

and by the end, Garrett and I were both
like, we gotta have you on our podcast.

So you're here.

Thank you for being here.

Why don't you tell our audience
who you are, your background a

little bit, and then we can dive
into our conversation today.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Sure.

Uh, it, it, it is actually an
honor, honestly, to be here.

Um, the conversation last week was great.

Uh, I really dig what you guys are doing
and, and, uh, you know, Daren, a lot of

the, uh, our interaction, uh, through
social media has just been really cool.

I mean, we're obviously kind of
pointed in the same direction and

thinking about a lot of the same
things, which are all in my mind.

Quite exciting and, and honestly
fulfill a, a big part of my, my dream

from the very early days of my career.

Um, again, my name is Steven Murray.

I am the founder and co CEO of Bingeable.

I.

Um, which I imagine we'll chat
about that in a, in a little bit.

So, but my background really is
entertainment since the age of 19.

I, I, I've been, in, in almost
every aspect of, of entertainment

in one form or another.

Um, I.

And, uh, have the scars to prove it.

Um, you know, this is a, this has been
a wild journey, uh, that started when

I was 19 years old as a songwriter,
uh, in Nashville, Tennessee, and then

major labor recording artist and, and,
uh, uh, all of the insane travails

of that, uh, of that career choice.

Um, which is clearly, uh, makes
me a glutton for punishment.

Um, but, uh, uh, have always been really,
really passionate, uh, throughout my

journey, starting as a, as an artist
myself, and then starting record companies

and even publishing magazines and, and,
and then eventually starting a record

company in New York, right around the
time of, I didn't, I didn't start it.

I joined a company that was, that was,
uh, uh, just getting started in New York

City during the digital music revolution.

And then, uh, continuing my.

Uh, sadomasochistic journey, uh, decided
that music industry was, was far too easy.

Uh, so I, I got into movies instead.

Um, and that that happened to coincide
around the streaming revolution.

And now all of these, the things
that I learned during that time were

really pointing towards, uh, this
idea of, of empowering the creators.

The, the, the artists, the people who
make the, the, the entertainment, uh,

to have more control over their own
destinies, to be able to actually, you

know, not just, uh, be afforded the
opportunity to make the stories that

they, that they are passionate about,
but to actually control how they are, how

they are, uh, monetized and distributed.

And, and as a result of that,
built to, to really be a, a

solution, uh, an al an alternative.

For indie film during what I believe
is now the Indie Film revolution.

I, I, I really think we are on the cusp of
a massive seismic shift in the industry.

Uh, and it will be driven by indies
because the old systems, um, uh,

the, you know, I having, having come
through the digital music revolution,

um, uh, as I did, I, I truly believe
that the movie industry is having

its music industry moment where
it's just going to change forever.

Uh, and as it.

that those old systems falter.

The question is that vacuum
that forms, who's gonna fill it?

And I believe it's the indie
filmmakers that can do that.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: yeah.

Which is what was so fascinating about
your, about our conversation last week

with you, and that's why we wanted
to have you on here to recap that.

What was it in the music industry
that kind of triggered this,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
you know, this something's broken

or something's not working.

For you.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Um, shall I go alphabetically,

uh, or chronologically?

Um,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

It's

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: it,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
program,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: right.

Okay.

Well, I, I, I hope you guys,
uh, bought more, uh, storage.

'cause this could go long.

Um, look, it, it, it.

Yeah, everybody knows that
the entertainment industry,

no matter what is hard.

It's, it's extremely difficult
to, to break through.

Um, and it kind of doesn't matter,
uh, really who you are, especially

at the early stages at the beginning,
it's just incredibly difficult.

Um, but I sensed very, very
quickly, you know, my father.

is it a, a brilliant technologist,
uh, very linear thinker.

You know, he just, he just, he
looks, he looks at numbers and he

says this, plus this, plus this.

That's going to equal this.

Even if we don't, you know, everybody else
doesn't see it yet, but brilliant man.

Um.

So I always brought kind of an analytical
approach, even as a, an art school kid who

got, you know, signed to be a songwriter.

Uh, my, my, uh, my lovely
wife's father's, uh, nightmare.

Um, uh, as far as, as far
as who he thought was going

to marry his little girl.

But,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
you know, the, uh, uh, it became really

clear to me that that, um, the path
towards success in the music industry,

um, was, was fraught with peril.

Incredibly difficult.

But you know, the one data point
that really stood out to me was that

the top 1% of every record company's
roster funded the bottom 99%.

In other words, they
had a 1% success rate.

And, and that started me down the path
of like, man, what if they didn't suck?

What if they, what if they could do 2%
success rate, the industry would explode.

You know, like how, how can we
figure out how to, how to do that?

But it also gave me the
sense that that, um.

That, that, that there wasn't a real
opportunity that was forming out of

that, which was really rooted in the, in
the idea that, that, um, and I learned

this very quickly as well, not only as
an artist myself, but primarily helping

other artists through their journey.

Um, that it is, it is the artists, the
creators, and the talent associated with

a project that had the relationship with
the audience, a real meaningful emotional

relationship, uh, with the audience.

And that brings with
it extraordinary power.

I.

And try to figure out how to
harness that direct relationship

to, to facilitate the marketing
and distribution of entertainment

has been my passion ever since.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Amazing.

One thing you were talking about in
your intro that I wanted to touch on

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Mm-hmm.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: is this
idea of like, doing it at a high level

because there's, you've, you said you
were a major label signed artist, right?

So you were already in
the echelon of like, I.

Signed major label.

That's like getting a studio gig in,
in the, in the film world, right?

Or having a theatric theatrical
release as an indie that does

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Mm-hmm.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
million plus or something like that.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

It's

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: But.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: air.

It really is.

Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Rarefied air.

But then even within that echelon,
that top tier, you're saying

there's a 1% of that percentage.

So I'm curious if, 'cause you've thought
about this, I'm sure, like what are the

things that not only get people into
that top tier, but then become the 1%,

like what are the characteristics or
the actions, the things that either

you did or that you saw your peers
do or that you're looking for in

people that you're working with today?

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: hmm.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
and, and.

a good question, but, but my,
my side question and hopefully I

don't derail, is, is that the goal?

Is that what we were trying

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Right.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: or
is that what we're trying to solve?

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Hmm.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
to say, Hey, let's,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
know, maybe you can

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Gary, that's, that's, that's,

that's the perfect follow up.

Um, to, to that, that first question.

So, addressing the first question, um,
will speak purely from my experience.

It was a combination of, uh, um.

Dumb luck in, in many ways.

I had, you know, while I, I was
going to Indiana University and, uh,

majoring in visual communications.

I was an art school kid.

Um, I, uh, had dreamed of making movies
my whole life from the age of 10 when I.

Saw Star Wars in the movie
theater 38 times that summer.

It came out, I mean, I
was absolutely obsessed.

While all my friends were going and
playing video games in the arcade and

dumping quarters in, I was reading movies
on filmmaking and special effects and

making a stop motion animation sequel to
Star Wars in my, my best buddy's garage.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Mm.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Um, and, and so, so I was, I was

completely obsessed until around,
uh, high school when I realized

that girls like guitar players.

And singers.

So I, uh, had that, had that, uh,
momentary lapse of judgment and, and, you

know, so I was kind of writing some songs
and just kind of demoing them myself.

And, and a buddy of mine that
I met happened to be a, a

studio musician in Nashville.

He got a hold of the tape and gave it
to his publisher and, you know, boom, I,

I'm suddenly coming down every weekend
during my junior and senior years of

college, uh, to write songs with some

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Wow.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
people.

Um, and, and, uh, it was, it was
just an extraordinary experience.

I was, frankly, and look, this, this
is gonna sound like, uh, you know,

false modesty, but I was not very good.

I didn't know what I was doing.

And, and, um, but as a result
of that, I met a bunch of guys.

We put a band together, we started
playing around and next thing you

know, they're like, well, you, you're,
you're, you're kind of crap at,

at writing songs for other people.

Let's see how you do.

For yourself.

And, uh, wound up, you know, starting
to make some records and starting

to tour and all of that, and that,
that, but again, that was at a time

when, when the independent, the
indie music scene was exploding.

So this is the early nineties,
which is gonna date myself.

Um, but, uh, so, so I, I, again, dumb
luck, I kind of fell into these amazing

situations that is not replicable.

But the one thing that I do
think is, and this is the, the

hardest thing that, that, uh.

Uh, you can ever.

You know, and then, and, and I, this
might be changing, let me, let me

say that at the, at, at the outset,
but back then it's because I was

relatively close to Nashville and able
to go down there and be there because

that's where it was happening, right?

That it was it that time you either
in the music business, you either

needed to be in New York, la, Seattle.

Or Nashville, and I was in Nashville.

And so I, you know, and I, and then
add to that, my kind of relentlessness,

my, my kind of just, I just, when I get
going, as you can hear already, when I get

going, it's hard, hard to make me stop.

So I just, I just kept
working and kept doing it.

But, you know, while it is,
as you said there in rarefied

air, um, the reality is, um.

In many ways, being part of that system
ultimately held me back from doing what

I really wanted to do in many ways,
just as it helped me move forward.

Garrett, to your, to
your follow up question.

you know, like, is, I used to always say
it's like, it's very weird feeling like

there are a million kids standing in
line behind me to fail as badly as I am.

Um, you know, like, like desperate
to fail as badly as I am.

Right?

That, that, that they
wanted that record deal.

They wanted to be on tour, they
wanted to do all those things.

And it's like, and I'm
like, you don't understand.

I'm like, when I'm not on tour, I
am building decks and I'm remodeling

homes with my guitar player.

You know, like, this is a brutal business.

It's really, really hard.

so, so, you know, I don't know,
Garrett, to your follow up question.

Um, had I had the chance to do
it differently at that time,

maybe the options weren't there.

Right?

There wasn't a truly independent
mechanism where, you know, it was

one thing to be able to make a
record in your, in your bedroom.

It's another thing to get it onto shelves.

And that system, which was archaic and,
and, and, you know, very, very difficult,

um, wasn't really possible on the indie.

That's why when the digital
digital Music revolution came

along, I embraced it fully.

I'm like, this is it.

Now we don't have to manufacture CDs
and then put 'em on a truck and pay the

store to actually put them on the shelf.

we can just deliver it as ones and zeros.

And that just changed everything for me.

And so, so Garrett.

Long-winded way of saying, I don't know
that that's necessarily the goal anymore.

I think it is much more about building
your own audience and delivering

high quality entertainment to that
audience that makes them not just

wanna watch, but to actively amplify
your work to their social sphere.

That is a, a unlocking, massive, massive
global potential for people who might

be making a film on their iPhone or, or

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
in their bedroom right now.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: So,
okay, so you're going along and in the,

in the music industry, you're recognizing,
Hey, there's a revolution happening.

Or

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: uh,
there are artists that are building

their own audience they kind of have more
control than those that are dependent

upon a, uh, a, a big label to put them

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
that 1% and carry the, you know,

push the wagon for everybody else

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: yeah.

Well, when you're doing it yourself,
you're the 100% the whole time.

You, you, you never have to
worry about the 1% of the 99%.

It doesn't, it may not work.

And, you know, I mean, like, you know,
we had, we, we started a little, a

little record company, me and some
buddies, you know, around that time.

Um, and you know, I, I, I always
joke about the fact like for us

selling 10,000 units was like.

living the dream man.

We're buying brand new Honda Accords.

We're eating it.

Red Lobster.

You know, we, we, we are,
we are, we are crushing it.

Uh, so the scale was very different,
but for us, that was massive.

Right.

That was a huge success because
it was just us, you know?

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Well, uh, yeah, well it's a hundred

percent, uh, a, a applicable
to our current situation right

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Absolutely.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
can sell, you know, a DVD from

my manufacturer and my own little
warehouse and sell it on Amazon.

And one

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
D-V-D-D-V-D.

That's adorable.

That's, that's adorable DVDs.

I remember those.

Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
so one person buying that nets me.

same amount as about 150,000 views on

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: or

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
exactly.

Exactly.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
it was like,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
The scale, the scales, the, the,

the scale is completely different,
you know, of, uh, and especially

when you're able to do it yourself.

Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
and I, yeah.

Um, okay.

So is not quite where Bingeable
comes in as far as the music scene.

I mean, you, you shared with us last
week, and I don't know if, I don't know

if you can get into that story of, uh.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Hmm.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Finding an artist that was kind

of doing something similar to

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
her own audience.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

So, um.

of the things that we were really
focused on with our little indie label

and, and I, and even the label that we
started, uh, in New York, the, the, the

guys who were the, the main founders
who brought me into that label, um,

were, were pretty well known people, but
they had really focused on, on, um, uh,

the same thing that I had focused on.

I think that's where the connective
tissue was, was, which is.

We were, we were very, very focused
on marketing our little records

out of Nashville, our little
indie rock label out of Nashville.

Um, we were really focused on using what
is referred to as Street Team Marketing.

is Street Team marketing?

Street Team marketing is that I
would bake little baseball hats

with our record company logo on it.

And I would go around to college campuses.

I would go around to, you know,
wherever, wherever I could find,

you know, the, the record stores.

Go into the record stores and
find that kid who's there every

day, you know, looking for music.

And you give them that baseball hat
and you say, tell all your friends.

You're in the music business now.

And because you now work
with a record company, right?

And it, and, and you get your friends
to buy our CDs, you get your friends

to show up at our shows and, and when
your friends show up at that show.

You're gonna be standing behind the
velvet rope with a lanyard on that says,

all access, and you're gonna tell your
friends, I'll see you guys after the show.

I'm gonna go have a beer with the band.

And that the juice of that, the, the, the,
the excitement that came from that was

so strong that these guys would go out
and market the hell out of our records

and it would cost me a baseball hat.

That was it, that that
was the concept, right?

Just by bringing them
behind the velvet rope.

That's how we referred to it.

You're, you're on the team
now, you're part of the squad.

Right.

You, you, you're, you're part of the,
of, of the community that is gonna

be out here building this artist.

Um, and, and while again our
scale was very, very small.

That, that became really key to it.

That's where I started learning about
that, you know, the idea that the artist

is who has the relationship, like, and
it goes beyond just having someone be

an ardent fan and buying everything you
put out and listening to it on blast,

everywhere they go, but actually about
becoming active evangelists on behalf

of your artists and that, and or on
behalf of your project, whatever that is.

that with the digital music revolution
and the advent of social media.

And I, like many of my other friends, um,
uh, many of whom are went on to be far

more successful than I did, but, but we
all recognized that social media was an

opportunity to do digital street teams.

was it, that was the insight, right?

It's like, you know, can you get.

Your, your community of fans to
not just simply passive passively

consume, but to actively advocate
to amplify these projects.

And if you do that, the ripples, those
rings going out from the center, like

when you drop a rock in a pond, those
can go farther and farther and farther.

and, and uh, that was the insight that,
that, uh, uh, we had at that time.

And, and so.

Um, there, this, this, I'll condense
this story 'cause it's, it's far more

convoluted than I'm about to imply.

But essentially we, we wound up
creating, uh, uh, an agency model,

um, with, with the, the pitch.

Um.

That, that was essentially if you activate
your audience on social media and in if

you, if you make them feel like they're
part of the team, if you incentivize them,

if you, if you give them what they want
and give them tools, they will go amplify

your project so far and wide that you can
reduce your traditional marketing spend.

and, and uh, that was uh, uh, the idea
that kind of drove that company and it

took a long time to get any kind of.

You know, sign up or any
kind of buy-in from anybody.

Uh, and as it happens, our, our
first major client happened to

be, uh, somebody who is now one
of the biggest stars in the world.

And, and that, that really got us started.

Um, uh, the last little caveat that I
always try to add is that honestly we

added nothing to her career, but in many,
many ways, I feel like she gave me mine.

Um, and, and it was an
extraordinary experience.

We learned a ton and it really fed, it was
all in my mind, kind of a Trojan horse.

What we were doing there was testing
out the ideas that would ultimately

become, uh, the cornerstone of bingeable,
uh, amplification marketing concept.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

That's amazing.

Um, okay, I have another question
for you because you've, uh, well,

let's, let's lean into the dumb
luck part of the story, right?

Which is, you were time-wise, right at
the transition in the music industry,

from music, from like analog to digital,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Absolutely.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
that plays a big part into

the success you've had, right?

And then you're, you happened
to have it again as you're.

Creating bingeable and, and getting into
the film industry at this time where the

transition to streaming has happened.

So what are the thing, what are
the common things, uh, between

those transition periods and the
opportunity that you saw that led?

I think that gives us a, an idea
as to why bingeable even exists.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Well, you know, Daren, it's,

it is really interesting.

Um, and I've said this a
lot, uh, uh, over the years.

Um, uh, I have been very, very
fortunate to be part of these,

these, or around four, let's just
say part is a little, that's too.

You know, two grand, uh, you know, I
was, I was there, I was around these,

these, these critical moments where
technology changed consumer behavior.

I.

Right.

It was, it was, it was transformative.

The, the new technologies,
which was just every day.

It's kinda like now with ai
it was like that back then.

New technologies were just pouring out
and, and the, the people who embraced

them and really, you know, uh, uh, ran
with the, the, the way technology changed

consumer behavior, uh, are, are the
big winners that we talk about today.

Um, and uh, so I was very, very
fortunate to be a part of that.

Um.

interestingly, and this is, this
is maybe not getting to the the

question that you asked, but I
do think it's important to note.

I think we are at one of those
moments right now where there is this

massive shift in consumer behavior.

But unlike all of those other revolutions
I was fortunate to be around for, this

one is not driven by new technology.

It is driven by a complete change
in the consumer base, in the,

the product set that they want.

The industry has found itself
no longer with a product market

fit because the consumers are
saying we wanted a different way.

Again, I see that as a massive opportunity
for indie creators because that means

the audience isn't necessarily wanting
what the big systems are offering.

Therefore.

We can make something brand new.

So, so yes, I've been around
for those milestones and I've

been very, very fortunate.

My career has been, know, I've
been able to stay afloat in a very

volatile business because of my
proximity to those revolutions.

But this one is different.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Hmm.

That's a big idea that this
one's not driven by technology.

So it's not an AI thing, it's
not a vertical video thing.

It's nothing like that.

It's that.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
may change.

It may change.

Uh, the technology is going to change
what, what and how, how things are made.

But what we need to be focused on is
this shift in consumer behavior, and

it is the, the audience is screaming at
creators for what they want and those

who recognize it and give them that
are gonna be the winners of the day.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Okay, so tell us more about that.

That feels like we just came over
the, the cusp of like a big idea.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: what.

What is it that you guys are
seeing in consumer behavior?

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Well, okay, so, so there's

lots of of data touch points.

Um, and remember I went to art school,
so, uh, please feel free to fact check

me on some of these numbers, but I'll,
I'll, I'll give you my best recollection

of what some of these numbers are.

And I think that they, um, there, there
is, there's something really funny that

you always have to remember about data.

Data is by its very definition old.

It's what happened, not
what's going to happen.

I.

so the, the trick is not being
able to look at the data and

say, oh, I need to go there.

Because by the time you're
there, the data is, is moved on.

There's new data now.

There's new, there's new
things to be recognizing.

So I spend a lot of time thinking about
this idea of interpolation, of disparate

data points with the idea of, it's, it's,
it's kind of the Wayne Gretzky mindset.

What did Wayne Gretzky say?

You know, here, the, the, the, the, the
greatest hockey player in the world said.

I had two objectives.

One, be where the puck was going to be and
then hit the puck where no one else was.

And, and you know that, like, that, that
is, you know, that's a, there's a lot

of great stuff to be learned in that.

As,

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: I never
heard the second part of that phrase.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
I mean, well, look, it's

very, it's, it's very simple.

If you hit it into something,
it's not going to go in the goal.

So put it where the
goalie isn't, you know,

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Amazing.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
uh, you know, it, it's, it's, so all

of that to say, I think there's really
interesting but, but kind of disparate

data points that if you draw a through
line, you'll see where things are going.

And that's, that's, I've tried to about
bingeable and build bingeable for that,

which, which by the way requires an
enormous amount of patience because

sometimes it takes a lot of time to get.

For where you've built, you know, in
anticipation of the market coming there.

But here's why we did what we
did and why we're focused on it.

I think there are, there's, there's,
there's more, but probably three main data

points that, that I would like to point
out that I think are absolutely critical.

One is, um, that, uh, 96, according
to Nielsen, 96%, it might be

92% something in the nineties.

Say that they trust a recommendation
that they get from someone they

follow online more than any ad.

So advertising simply does not connect.

Right?

It may serve some purposes, but it
does not resonate with, you know, the,

the, the, the, the audience in general.

But a recommendation does, that's one.

Digging further into that, the
subset of that is, is the, the, the

that says 77 or 72%, somewhere in
the seventies, percent of Gen Z.

Say they make 100% of their
entertainment consumption choices

based on what they hear about
through social media, so, so that is.

A clear indication of of, of how
these audiences need to be reached.

You need to be thinking about building
net networks of recommendation.

Um, that, that, that what we refer to
as amplification, um, a, a community of

people who, who, who are passionate about
telling their friends about your project.

Um, should be everyone's.

Main focus when it comes to
marketing and we built bingeable

to, to be a part of that equation.

And then the last data point
that I focus on that I think is,

is absolutely transformational.

And this is where, I believe, uh, what
I was saying about it not being a,

a revolution led by new technology.

Um, this is the data point that
I think reflects that the most.

In 2019, I read a report, um, that sent
alarm bells, uh, in my head, was that,

uh, somewhere around 19% of under the age
of 35 said that they were doing what is

now referred to as subscription cycling.

And what that means is they
would subscribe to a platform, a

subscription platform to watch a
specific thing and then cancel.

Then move to the next, right?

That was 19% of consumers under 35.

Fast forward to today, and in
2025, according to Statista, that

number is well over 50% of all
consumers do subscription cycling.

What does that mean?

They're essentially treating
subscription video on demand, like

transactional video on demand.

There are lots of
subsets to that, to that.

That, that data, right,
including a willingness to pay.

I will pay to watch
something I want to watch.

I am interested in the lowest
friction access to that entertainment

that I can possibly find.

And I hate commitments.

I am of the generation that I have my
credit card down on any, uh, a dozen.

Different platforms and, and, and I
am their ideal consumer because in the

subscription model, the ideal consumer
is someone who pays and watches nothing.

That's actually their ideal consumer.

And this, and this is, is where I get
to this very quick, the very important

point, I'll try to do this quickly, but
it is important for people to understand

that the shift that occurred that what
streaming and subscription VOD did is

it took the entertainment industry out
of the business of making marketing

and selling movies and TV shows, and
in the business of making marketing,

uh, TV shows to sell subscriptions.

platforms, their products
are not movies and TV shows.

Their products are subscriptions.

And that data set of over 50%
of all consumers saying, I

don't want that product anymore.

I don't want the subscription product.

I want the movie.

I.

But I don't want the subscription.

So that churn, all of that has
led to, I mean, you know, again,

there's, there's this, there's this
very, very dark narrative that's

going around Hollywood right now.

I'm, I'm sitting here today in the, in the
middle of this, of this crazy industry.

In this crazy town, and what nobody's
really talking about or saying is

that that data absolutely terminal.

the subscription model, you cannot
maintain that level of churn.

And again, don't, don't mistake what
I'm saying with, with some sort of like,

uh, bet that they're all gonna fail.

These are some of the
smartest people in the world.

They, they are, and they are loaded.

They have tons of cash.

They will figure something out.

But very much like how the music
industry responded to the shift in

consumer behavior from physical goods
sold at stores that they controlled

and that they owned to suddenly.

This, this, this, free for
all of of digital discovery

and consumption of music.

And the way that the music industry
basically just did this and said,

if we just ignore it, it'll go away.

I see that happening
in Hollywood right now.

And again, the question is, do
you wanna make your bet to try

and be a part of that system?

Which is at best, at best, plateaued
and, and at worst, faltering.

Uh, one might even say crumbling, or
do you want to be thinking about how

you can take advantage of those shifts
in consumer behavior, which basically

scream for a direct to consumer approach?

Talent to fan is the future and,
and, and, and my mind, and that's

what we're squarely focused on.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: I feel
like we need to just hit the pause button

and process all that for a few minutes,
but Garrett, Garrett, what do you have?

Follow up for that.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Well, I, I mean it's, I think you've

described the perfect lead up to,
if I'm an independent filmmaker

and we're talking about bingeable.

Tell me what that is,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
that on a, uh, you know, Daren

mentioned he, he, he graduated
from sixth grade this morning.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yes.

Congrat again, congratulations.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: that
as a sixth grader, what, what, or, or

as me an independent filmmaker that

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
little understanding of data points and

trajectories and look, I wanna make my
movie and I want to get it to my audience.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
seems like a solution for that.

So.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah,
that's, that's, yeah, that's why we built

Bingeable Garrett, that it, it, it really
is honestly to, to facilitate that, uh,

that, that opportunity for filmmakers.

Um, again, it's not a, it's not a panacea.

I.

it's, it's a way to do it.

It's not necessarily the way to
do it, you know, and it really,

bingeable is designed to work for
a very specific type of project.

And, and, and, uh, and I'm happy to kind
of dive into how we look at that and,

and what we're, what we're thinking of.

But when it's all said and
done, um, you know, if you,

if you walk into a financier.

And you say, I have an idea for a movie
and I want to put it into a system,

that is specifically designed to make
independent films, to make money on behalf

of the middlemen who put these movies
out, on an independent film, but virtually

guaranteeing that the independent
film itself will not turn a profit.

Um, or do you go to that financier and
say, I've got a great idea for a movie

and I have a million fans connected to
this project who absolutely passionately

want to advocate on its behalf.

we have a mechanism whereby we can
not only, uh, uh, get to those fans.

First, and, and, and, and deliver directly
to them the, the ability to watch our

movie, but then we can also empower
them to go and amplify that movie and

actually make them part of our business
plan, part of our business model, turning

the audience into the marketing energy.

Uh, and, and, and, you know, uh, getting
those ripples, as I described, those

ripples going out from the center
farther and farther and farther.

And by the way, it costs you nothing
unless somebody actually buys the movie.

That, that that's, that's
the secret sauce right there.

And it, it, so it's important
I think, to understand kind of

the concept behind bingeable.

Bingeable is the, the,
the sixth grade answer.

Bingeable is an affiliate platform
for movies and TV shows where the

affiliates are the stars of the movie.

The artists who provide music for
the soundtrack, the producers,

directors, all the way down to the
grips and PAs, but also the audience.

affiliates for the movie as well.

And it's a very simple idea.

We have, well, it's not a simple idea.

We, because building it has been very,
very difficult and very expensive.

But, but the idea is, is, you know, most
understandable like this, if you are a

movie star and you already have a fan base
of social media followers, we give you the

ability to go to your followers and say.

Here's my new movie.

Watch it on my own, what we call
individual VOD channel or IVOD, right?

It is, it, it is, it is a, a, a
distinct standalone VOD channel.

And every time one of that Stars fans
or or followers or friends, clicks, rent

and, and watches that movie, that star
gets 20% of dollar one gross revenue.

Um, which is the, the, the fabled
promise in Hollywood for the last, you

know, 50 years is the idea of dollar
one gross revenue participation.

But it is a myth.

It doesn't actually exist because.

Whoever the exhibitor is, they're gonna
take their cut first no matter what.

So there is no such thing as dollar
one gross, except in this model because

you're the one who got the sale.

So therefore, we pay a 20%
commission to the star, to the

grip, to the pa, and to some fan.

In Ohio, we pay them 20% of the dollar,
one gross revenue that comes in anytime

one of their friends or followers or fans.

Rents the movie through their
IVOD, and that's, that's the model.

We, we've got a lot of and whistles
underneath, including amplification

marketing tools that we've developed.

And, and most importantly, the accounting
system and, and the way we built that

are, are all proprietary and very, very
different from the traditional model.

But at its heart, is a marketing
platform where the amplifiers are

the creators and their audience.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
I, I think it's brilliant.

I love, yeah.

I'll substitute your simple
idea for brilliant idea because.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Thank you.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
as a, as a filmmaker, you know,

we've got a hundred people
that are working on the film.

They're all getting their day rate, and,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Exactly.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
they walk away with their check.

And then six months later, the movie
show, you know, the, we, we put the

movie in a theater and they go, oh,
we should get people to go see this

movie that I, that I worked on.

They don't get any

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yep.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
for that.

So if

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
and neither do the stars

Garrett, neither do the stars.

Remember, they, they, they, like in,
in the, in the old system, there's

very little motivation for them to
act other than contractual obligation.

And I think I joked with you guys last
time, you, you know, as someone who's

worked with some of the biggest stars
in the world, in my, in, in my life, I

have learned a very important lesson.

The worst possible way to motivate a a,
a artist to do something they don't want

to do is to contractually obligate them.

That it's, it's a, it is a terrible model.

Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
You're contractually

obligated to like and promote

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yes.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
see that in their, in their press

tour and their interviews and, and you

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
exactly.

Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: for the

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Re remember, remember they made that

movie a year ago, and the check that
they got to make that movie was spent

a year ago, and now you're telling
them, now go promote this movie.

So all the money that comes in goes to me.

Appreciate you.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Good luck.

Good luck getting a really heartfelt,
uh, uh, uh, push from your talent.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Hmm.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Okay, so you've flipped the script

on that and now we've got, Hey, the
movie is coming out, faith Angels,

you guys worked on this and we're
gonna be on this platform or whatever.

And here is your personal link, your

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Mm-hmm.

Ivo.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: link

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Mm-hmm.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
that you can now share with your

family and friends and everything.

Now as a filmmaker, my question
then is, well wait a second.

Already, I'm, I'm spending
30% for my distributor

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Mm-hmm.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
you know, 15% for my sales agent.

And then there's the, you
know, product cost and, and

you, you solved that as well.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

Well, I mean, again, I think it requires
different thinking from the beginning.

And, and Daren, you and I talk about
this all the time on, on social media.

Um, the idea of bringing your
audience and bringing people into

the process at the very beginning, I.

Getting them to become, uh, vested
in, in, in the, in the project.

And, and I, I'll insert this
little thing here as to why we

think this is so, such a powerful
concept, especially for indie film.

Ryan Reynolds, who I admire greatly,
uh, as a, as a business person.

Um, and I think it is.

Would be very difficult to argue
that as it relates to movie stars.

Uh, there is no one better at using
social media to market his side hustles.

Right.

His, his, his, his, his $2 billion
and, you know, $2 billion side

hustles and won hundreds of
millions of dollars side hustle.

He has

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
that strictly through his,

his savvy of social media.

And I have been screaming this
quote over and over again.

So forgive me if anybody in these
audience, audience has heard me or

seen me post about this, uh, because
I've done it about a thousand times.

But it is so telling, and it speaks to
exactly this question Ryan Reynolds said.

And I'm gonna try and quote it verbatim.

People want to have a sense of
ownership over the success of something.

In other words, they don't
want to just be watchers.

They want to be a part of it.

And if you can understand that
psychology, that consumer behavior,

and harness it from the very, very
beginning, what you're doing is you're

not only building an audience around
your, around your film before you even.

Made it, you're also creating this, this
mechanism when it comes out of a immediate

sales and b amplification marketing
recommendations going out and that, so,

so that needs to be kind of the, the, the,
the, the mindset, uh, of filmmakers today.

Um, and, and it, it requires.

You know, different, different muscle
groups than most filmmakers are used to.

I, you know, the, I, I believe the future
of, of indie film is entrepreneurial.

Um, it's gonna be people who are
amazing storytellers who know how to

use technology and the tools to create
great, beautiful visual, powerful

stories, um, who also understand how
to build community, how to engage

audiences, and how to market their
movies, uh, from the beginning to end.

And if you do that, then you do not need.

A sales agent, you do
not need a distributor.

You do not need an exhibitor
because you and your community

are all three of those things.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Um, I don't know if you can see

the smile on my face, if it's big,
if it's big enough or not, but,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
I mean,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: uh.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
it's, it's, it's, no, I just graduated

from sixth grade smile, but, you
know, look, it's, it's, it's solid.

It's solid.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
You guys keep saying that.

I don't not think you understood
what I said this morning.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: You

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Oh, you didn't graduate?

Look, don't.

No, no, no.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
graduation,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
have a son,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: shame.

No

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: he's 12.

He

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: he took

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: amazing.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Okay.

All right.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
no, you're right.

That's a good point.

Uh, Daren,

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: guys.

Stand corrected.

Uh.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: I
felt very strongly like I needed to

help everyone understand that I did
not graduate from sixth grade today.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
I mean, that's it.

No shame, man.

Lots of people don't graduate
from elementary school.

Don't worry about it.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: didn't

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

With with with, with chat GPT, you
don't even need to anymore, right?

I mean, isn't that

making fun of you?

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Just own the host.

Uh, okay.

Well, okay.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
all outta love, Daren.

It's all outta love.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
track because we, we only, yeah.

Um, for the third act of our podcast,

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409: we now?

On Bingeable, uh, I'm an
independent filmmaker.

I'm listening to this
podcast going, cow, this

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
I've got a hundred people already that

want to help get my film out there.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: yeah,

garrett-batty_1_05-20-2025_100409:
What, what's next?

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: and

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: mean,

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: to
caveat on that, because Garrett did it

to me earlier, like what's, where does it
fit in the release window in your mind?

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
No, absolutely.

Um, okay, so, um, gonna answer that second
part first and back into the first part.

So, so the thesis, the thesis of Bingeable
is that, um, if you can show, uh, a, a,

a, an ancillary release window streamer.

Right.

Uh, that, that in your initial release
window, regardless of how it's released,

that it had success, a form of success.

Then the thesis is that you are what
used to be mgs, they don't do MGS

anymore, but now your license fees
could be more favorable down the line.

So that con, in that construct,
um, we fit into, I believe, the

initial release window best.

Um, and Bingeable is, I've really
focused on kind of the Ivo d component

because I think, know, the, the,
the vast majority of indie films.

likely will not have
success at the box office.

Just a real meaningful success.

The economics are very difficult,
just in general, but, but, uh, it,

it, it's, it's so hard, it's such a
high friction experience again, that,

that, uh, uh, uh, report that came out
a few months ago from the, from all

the cinema groups coming together and
doing this study, said that a huge.

Majority of consumers said they
consider a night at the movies.

Uh, uh, absolutely worth the money.

Like a, a, a, a good experience.

Now you gotta.

Factor in their own bias and how
those questions may have been asked.

But, but I do believe that's true.

I think that the consumers are
saying we will pay for an experience

to see something that we want.

For sure.

The problem is that they are, you
know, the data is, is horrific.

It used to be.

That, that, uh, you know, people
would see a couple movies a month and

now the data is the vast majority.

See maybe a couple of movies a year.

So, so as an indie filmmaker,
being able to break through on the

theatrical side is very challenging.

So the Ivo model, the Direct two fan
Ivo model, is really meant to be an

alternative to the theatrical window.

That first release window
going direct to consumers.

The differences would be not, not the
least of which, um, it does not depend on

opening weekend, you can have a longer run
and you can let the film build over time.

The concept of amplification marketing
is, it's not a big splash and then fades.

It's a slow build into a big,
a big splash and then fades.

Right?

So, The ability to do that
I think is really important.

But we also have the ability,
you, you started the question

with where is Bingeable now?

I'll, I'll kind of end with that,
but, but the, we are working on the

ability to also sell movie theater
tickets the same way, That, that

it's, it's amplification marketing.

If I'm a star, if I'm a, a, an artist
who provided music to the soundtrack,

and, and, and by the way, for.

Filmmakers really think about
that part as part of your model.

When we're talking about a
bingeable release, the musicians

tend to have more followers on
social media than movie stars do.

not universally true, but in general.

Um, and, and in the old model when
you're doing a needle drop in your film.

By an artist that you love for a
song that's perfect for the scene.

You pay a sync license, you pay, you
pay a fee to the record company, you

pay a fee to the publisher that goes
in the artist's Recoupable account,

and they will never see a penny of it.

In other words, they have no motivation
to help you market and sell your movie.

in our model, every time one of their
fans rinse that movie through their IVOD.

They get a check, they get 20%
of that transaction, not the

publisher, not the label, the artist.

And that creates a huge, you know,
incentive for them to go and push it.

So all, all of that, all of that to say,
uh, if you are releasing theatrically, I.

Cool.

We can help you sell
movie theater tickets.

Right?

Fine.

It's just, it's just an API from,
whether it's, whether it's Fandango or

from the, the cinema chains themselves,
it's actually not super complex.

Um, so, so you know that
that is one component.

Right now we're really focused on
primarily providing the alternative.

For indie film to go direct to consumer
where they market and sell the movie

through social media directly to
their consumers with no middlemen.

That's how we get the math.

I.

Completely different than because
there is no sales agent, there is no

distributor, there is no exhibitor.

You are, you are it.

And that means can go to your financiers
and say, in this model, unlike the

traditional model where you're gonna get
at best 5 cents of every dollar to recoup

your cost of production and marketing.

By the way, you, the, the financier
still has to technically recoup the

cost of marketing e even if they didn't
write, write the check, which now more

and more they're having to, you know,
it, that, that, that 5 cents of every

dollar means you are never gonna recoup
from that initial release window.

Your best bet is a long chain of, of, of
licensing deals that you do down the line.

but in this model.

They're, you're, you can say to your
financiers, you're able to recoup from

a minimum of 16 times the amount of
gross revenue of a traditional release

because all those middle men are gone
and, and also the cost of of marketing

is significantly less, so everybody wins.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
It sounds like you cracked it, man.

I'm excited.

Excited to see.

So when Garrett says, where is it now?

Like if there's a filmmaker
that's listening to this,

they can go to Bingeable and
sign up, or where are you at?

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
so, so, so we do it.

Um, it's not like YouTube.

You can't just sign up
and upload anything.

Um, it does have to be formally licensed.

Um, and as a result of that, we have to
be very, very selective about what we are.

Connecting with, we've, we've
released a few movies, um, this

way, uh, to this point, but
intentionally at a very small scale.

We, we, we still, I would consider
our platform as it as it sits right

now, very much an alpha version.

The, the guts are, are working
exactly the way we want.

The, the actual presentation layer.

The front end is where we need
to, to kind of make some tweaks.

So we're working on that.

We're also taking some of the data we
collected from releasing a, a movie from

Stephen Soderberg and David Letterman
and, and, uh, now, uh, most recently a

movie about Leon Oesi, the soccer star.

Uh, what we've learned from
doing, from doing those little

experiments, uh, where we've not
done a big push, we've just kind of.

Look to see what, what the
market does with those.

Um, what we've learned has told us
that, that there, there are some things

that we can really improve upon as
it relates to our user experience,

both on the, on the consumer side,
but also on the amplifier side.

So we're working on those right now.

The platform is up and it works,
and if you've got a film that, that

you wanna put up and put out, we
are happy to have that conversation.

But I will tell you,
expectations need to be.

Set, right?

Which is, you know, having a hundred
fans who will actively go out

and market and sell your movie is
awesome, but that's small, right?

Your expectations should
be relatively low.

That, that, that their reach
is only gonna be so far.

Um, and, and, you know, the,
the, the real ideal scenario.

And this is kind of what we are thinking
about as we're, 'cause we're also

working towards producing films that are
designed to meet the Bingeable model.

Um, we're really focused on films
that have ensemble casts that have,

that have people who, who have.

Different audiences, but fans
who are connected to them.

Um, we want the soundtrack to be
banging with artists who are active

and out there promoting and, and, and
helping to, uh, you know, and who will

actively help and promote the movie.

Um, and, and that's kind
of our, our ideal scenario.

Anything less than that.

need to create appropriate expectations.

Um, and I want, I know we're
long on time, so I won't go

into kind of how we calculate

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Yeah.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
the, the, the actual math of what you

can expect, but just understand, we're
thinking along the lines of at like,

kind of the sweet spot being maybe 1% of
the social media footprint of the whole

project converting into paying customers.

So you need to be thinking
along those lines and the more.

Social media, bigger.

The social media footprint, you have
1% becomes more and more meaningful.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
Garrett, do you know any movies

that kind of fit that description?

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409: Nice.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409: Amazing.

Steven.

Uh, you've been generous with your time.

We usually go like 30, 35 minutes with
guests, but we just, we feel like we keep

talking about this 'cause there's so many
great ideas that you've shared today.

Hopefully people listen and pay attention
about like this shift that's happening

and where things are headed, whether
they end up on bingeable or not.

I think it's important to realize that.

Things are changing and
you gotta adapt as well.

It doesn't mean you necessarily
need to go make one minute long

vertical videos for short form.

That's, that's

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
or you can,

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
say, or you can, but

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
I gotta be honest, I think that's

the, that's the new pilot model.

I, I, I, I, I, you can, you can build
massive audiences very quickly and tell

the first 10 pages of your movie story.

Um, and, and, and then go make the rest.

I mean, I, I, I'm, I'm actually,
making, making some moves to

kind of lean into that Very hard.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
There we go.

Uh, my goodness.

So where, where's the best place
for people to connect with you?

Like we keep mentioning social media,
LinkedIn is where we connected, and

it was a, it's great having that,
uh, relationship there, but where's

the best place for people to find
out more about what you're up to?

I.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
I, I will, I will put in a shameless

plug for LinkedIn right now.

Um, I, that's where I am doing most of
my kind of posting and postulating and

theorizing, uh, and where I'm connecting
with most people as I connected with you.

Um, but I also think that, uh,
very importantly for independent

filmmakers, you need to be treating
your movies like a startup.

need to be thinking like a business
person from the beginning and the people

who are in the indie film space, or even
just the film space in general, who are

talking about all of this stuff, who
are sharing ideas, who are coming up

with, with, with, with a new vision and
a new path forward for this industry.

Those conversations are happening
on LinkedIn and, and so my advice

would be a, if you wanna contact me.

I'm on LinkedIn, uh, that that's the
easiest way to kind of, kind of reach out.

Um, you know, I've got a, a free
newsletter that I do every week, like,

like, uh, Daren, you in Craftsman film.

So, so, you know, there's, there's,
there's ways to kind of hear some of more

of these thoughts for what they're worth.

Um, and, uh, but also to connect
with a community of filmmakers who

are actively envisioning a new.

the, the, i I, one of the things
that I have said is like, we need

to stop relying on the people
who broke the industry to fix it.

and, and if you, if, and the
reality is I don't know that the

old systems, uh, can be fixed.

I think they need to be replaced.

And, and the, the, the, the
birthplace of the new indie film

industry, I believe is on LinkedIn.

daren-smith_1_05-20-2025_100409:
So, so well said.

Uh, Stephen Murray, thank
you for joining us today.

It's been a pleasure having you.

I'm sure we'll be chatting again soon.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Awesome.

stephen-murray_1_05-20-2025_090409:
Thank you guys.

Thank you so much.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Garrett.

What'd you think of that?

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
thanks for inviting him.

What a, what a concept, and
he's certainly it through very

well and spoke well about it.

So thank you.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah, I
think one of my big takeaways from that

is how important it is to be analytical.

To think about where things are
headed, to anticipate and then make

directional changes accordingly.

those were a lot of words to say, like the
importance of anticipation, the importance

of being able to see what's coming and not
just float along, but to actually like.

Stick your or in the river and divert
yourself left or right, and say, well, I

want to go this way, or I wanna go this
way and this is where I want to end up.

Um, because yeah, the industry's
kind of going one way.

And if you just kind of sit on a raft
and let it take you there, it may not

end up in a place that you want to be.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Yeah, no, I think it's great.

And from a very like simpletons
perspective of it, you know, I, I'm

in conversations yesterday with, uh,
people that are helping, you know, a

sales agent for faith of Angels and, uh.

You know, they're getting their
share on everybody's work.

And I just think how do, how do we
make that a little bit more equitable?

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
uh, this seems like a

great solution to do that.

I, yeah.

What a great concept.

Well, then you go, okay, our audience,
you know, we've seen it with our

movies where the audience is impacted.

They want to share the movie.

So same thing.

It's not just people that worked on
the movie, it's saying, know, now when,

you know posts to her little Facebook
followers says, I saw a really neat

movie that, you know, touched my heart.

She now puts a link to
her own little Ivo thing.

And,

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955: those
that watch it from there, get to see it

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: I
mean, I'm thinking about the Dennis

family who have been like the biggest
proponents of faith of angels.

'cause it's their story.

They've shared it and invited hundreds
of people to come watch it and see it

in theaters or premieres or screenings.

But even my dad, who's got, you know,
probably 300 people, follow him on

Facebook, was able to like sell out a
screening in Sacramento, my hometown,

because he just texted and called all of
his friends and said, we're doing this and

there's 50 seats and I want you to come.

And it was just, it's like, okay, but.

It doesn't require a massive audience if
you have that affinity and that trust.

So I'm, I'm curious if how
the numbers actually play out.

If you can over time be tracking like,
oh, this movie had potential reach

of 10 million people, or a hundred
thousand people, or 5 million people.

What does the actual
conversion rate look like?

But I don't think it's strictly a
function of the size of the audience.

I really think it's about the
affinity and the connection and the

relationship you have with that audience.

'cause your 7,000 or 15,000 people
on an email list are more connected

to you than, you know, an algorithm
that can reach 10, 10 million people

because you put money behind it.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
I agree.

Yeah,

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: yeah.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
it's awesome.

I look forward to seeing, uh, the
different iterations of it and,

uh, seeing it evolve into something
that is very, very, um, disruptive.

Honestly, it's.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
very cool time.

I love that.

Uh, you know, there are
other people thinking about

how to be truly independent.

He even dropped that, that phrase truly
independent during our episode today.

So it's just like, all right,
we're kindred spirits if we're

talking about the same thing here.

Um, Garrett, any updates for
this week you wanted to share?

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955: Uh,
this afternoon I'm doing a read through,

uh, for a short film that was, that is
on the next phase of Uh, and, uh, we'll

see from the read through whether this.

Distributor wants to fund
it, which is kind of fun.

It's kind of fun to do a short film.

It's very, very low pressure.

And, um, uh, get to interact with some,
you know, friends from past films, some

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
and talent.

And so, that's exciting.

And then tomorrow I head out
to Africa for five weeks for

a shoot, uh, all over Africa.

We're going Ivory Coast to,

Gosh, to Rwanda, to, uh,
Kenya, to Republic of, uh,

democratic Republic of Congo.

Um, so we'll be there on a couple of
iPhones running around, interviewing and

creating narratives, uh, know, narrative
vignettes of, of what we interview.

So it's a different form of
filmmaking, uh, but one that I'm

excited to kind of get back into.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
That's amazing.

Very cool.

I don't really have much to report.

Uh, we we're still cranking along, making
progress every day on this fund, but you

know, every day there's more outreach
and more people I'm connecting with and

having good conversations with not only
investors, but people who are connected

to investors that are in this space.

And so I'm realizing more and more that.

A lot of times it's hard to
connect with the money people.

The people who have the money.

A lot of times they've.

Purposefully put like a barrier or a
layer between you and them and they

have a guy who's like their crypto guy
or they have a guy who's their film

investment guy, or they have a real
estate guy and like, okay, so you know,

every day it's navigating these, this
complex terrain of film finance to go,

oh, I didn't realize this was an option.

Maybe let's ex, let's explore
this path a little bit.

So that's kind of the path I'm on, is
finding some of these, uh, whether you're.

Broker dealers or just trusted investment
advisors of these family funds or

family offices or high net worth
individuals and going, oh, you manage

their money when it comes to film.

Well, we should have a conversation.

And that's, those are way more
fruitful than, you know, cold DMing

people on LinkedIn who I think
have money based on their name.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955: Um, I,
I, my, my experience with those sometimes

is, uh, the high net worth individual
says, oh, that sounds fantastic.

You know, talk to so and so.

He managed my money.

And that's the same as, uh, an actor
saying, yeah, I'd love to be a part of it.

Talk to my agent.

then, uh, the may, maybe,
perhaps the intent is.

Deal, deal falls apart,

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
cynicism and, uh,

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
There's definitely a difference

between, you should talk to my guy,
here's his name or her name, and oh,

let me text my guy and put you in a
text thread so I know what I'm getting.

Like

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955: There,

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: if
they're texting somebody and including

me in the text, that's a signal of
this needs to happen, make it happen.

Whereas the other one is, good luck.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Good luck.

It's like, I don't want
to tell you no, but I've

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
to tell you.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
I fired a guy to tell you.

No.

Hey, let me have you talk to my no guy.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
yeah, what it's

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Oh, so good.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
okay, man.

Well, uh, a great, great conversation.

Thank you very much.

And, uh,

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: Yeah,

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
that we, I definitely understood about

your, your son graduated from si great.

Congratulations to

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955: you
know, you know, it's just, it's probably

something I need to go to therapy about
that I, that I felt the need to correct

you guys and stop making fun of me.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955: Oh no.

Uh, little, little joking.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Oh, it was fun.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
is always fun.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
It was good.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Good to see you.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Thanks Garrett.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955:
Hopefully I'll be able to

chat with you, uh, next week.

Uh, we'll, we'll set up a time that, uh,
matches the significant time difference.

daren-smith_2_05-20-2025_105955:
definitely.

garrett-batty_2_05-20-2025_105955: Okay.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

questions about today's episode.

Head over to 3coinpro.

com slash podcast.

And put in your name and an email address.

If you're a fan of the show, please
leave us a review on your favorite

podcast app and be sure to share this.

Thanks for listening.

And we'll see you next week.

Our intro and outro music is
election time by Kjartan Abel.