Truly Independent: Demystifying the Indie Film Journey

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Welcome to Season three
of Truly Independent.

I'm Garrett Batty, alongside
my co-host Daren Smith.

Each week we'll go in depth with guests,
industry experts, and we'll even share

our own experiences, all with the goal of
demystifying the independent film process.

This season, it's all about the
script from the first spark of an

idea to a polished final draft,
breaking it down for scheduling,

budgeting, and ultimately shooting.

We'll walk through every step it
takes to get from page to production.

Welcome to Truly Independent.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Well, hello Garrett.

How's it going?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
It is going very well,

Daren better than I deserve.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Oh,
I don't, I don't know about that.

Don't talk to Garrett that way.

Better than you?

deserved.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: no,
that just means it's very, very good

and, and I only deserve Very good.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I beg to differ.

I think you deserve everything.

But that's exciting to hear that
things are going better than expected.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: you
have another script notes shirt on.

I like it.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: I do,
this is our subtle nudge or not so

subtle now that I'm calling it out
to, for people to watch the YouTube

version of the show because I try to
wear film related shirts, some which

are mine and most, which are not

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Not your shirts or not your films.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: uhhuh.

I didn't, I didn't make this shirt.

I,

no, I didn't make this shirt.

This is a script notes 10th
anniversary shirt that I.

got however many years ago
their 10th anniversary was.

It's still one of my favorites.

So I wear it, I wear it proudly.

I will say though, I was at Universal
Studios two weekends ago, so before we

recorded the last episode, but I was
there and got a, a handful of nods.

'Cause I was wearing my invest
in indie film t-shirt that I.

Made and, you know, sold to myself.

And it was like, Okay, cool.

I'm, I'm among my people.

'cause they were all like,
man, I like that shirt, man.

That's, oh, we need,
where'd you get that shirt?

So there we go.

I like it.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I think we're laying the foundation

for the the truly independent swag
shop at some point Merch store.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
There you go.

When the demand shows up, we will need it.

How about that?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: in
the meantime, why waste time with that

when we could be recording episodes and
writing and focusing on season three?

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Exactly, exactly.

I'm not here to sell t-shirts.

I dunno about you.

Okay.

We got a fun topic today.

I'm, I'm excited.

And it's very timely.

And so today we're talking about
the sizzle, we're talking about

the proof of concept, the short
teaser, whatever you want to call it.

We're gonna stick with sizzle today and.

The idea of like, what goes into a sizzle?

What is the goal of a sizzle?

What, like, why would you do one?

All those questions and more will be
answered today on truly independent.

So Garrett give us a little update.

You know, you dropped
a bomb on us last week.

We started and kicked off season
three because, you know, you got into

development on your next project.

And so do you have any updates on the
script writing process or the development

process that's currently underway?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Oh, well, yes.

Thank you.

Since you've asked.

Yeah, it's been a good week.

It's been a productive week.

You and I talked last week about
me starting this new script.

I think I had you know, I kind of went
through the process of, had an outline

down, and then this past week I've been
very, it's been just kind of dialed in.

We're, we're in the mode of getting
up early, getting some pages written

each day, and I'm pleased to report.

I'm at page 95 right now.

Which is fun and just, it's just knowing
that, hey, probably none of these pages

will stick, but we're just getting 'em out
there and getting 'em into a place where

I can organize and kind of really them.

But to, to be at 95 non blank
pages where I wanna be right now.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

that's a big deal.

You're making good progress because
I think last week you were at about

10 to 12 after flying home, you know,
the two days before the last episode.

So you're cranking out 10 pages a day.

That's pretty solid.

Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
it feels, it feels good and, and

I've just committed to say, Hey,
before I go to bed each night, I need

to be at this certain page count.

And so it's a matter of, know, staying
up late or take my laptop to bed,

or just staying focused during the
day and getting those pages done.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Well, and
for you listeners that have not worked

with Garrett, I, I don't know that I've
met a harder working individual and when

someone, when Garrett sets his mind to
something like, I'm gonna do 10 pages

a day, you better believe like he's not
going to bed until he does 10 pages a day.

Like, that's just how Garrett is.

So that's very exciting.

I'm not surprised, but I'm also
like, dang, that's impressive.

That's 95 pages in like 10 days is.

That's a fast clip for writing a a script.

So is it a function of you had a good
outline, you had like your 90 beats, or is

it, and or is it like the fact that it's
a true story and based on a true story,

so you kind of had some of the story
and the structure already there for you?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Well, I think Daren that in.

It is a fast pace, right?

But it has been a mindset
of, look, when we're on set,

shooting eight to 10 pages a day.

we can't, if I can't write that,
then you know, I'll tell you what

enables us to shoot eight to 10
pages a day is thorough prep.

think that's the same thing for writing.

So we say if I'm not able to
write eight to 10 pages a day,

I haven't done enough prep.

that's researching the story, building
out the story matrix, kind of that beat

tree that we talked about in last episode.

And with those things, that's been a
hundred percent what's enabled me to

be able to write these 10 pages a day.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Nice.

One last question then
we'll move on to sizzle.

But are you, are you thinking
in terms of scenes when you're

writing or is it just page count?

Like are you going, okay, this is
a five page scene, this is a three

page scene, this is a two page
scene, and now that's my 10 pages?

Or how do you, how do you think
of scenes in this context?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I am paying attention to scenes

and kind of focusing and saying,
okay, pacing wise, we need.

You know, a quick upbeat now and then
plot wise, we need to now really kinda

get into the mindset of these characters.

And so that'll be a five minute
scene or a six minute scene, and,

and I'll do page count there.

I'm not like scientific about it or
really, really precious about it.

If a scene's running shorter,
long, I don't try to force it.

But, but I do pay attention to
that and say, okay, we need to be

this, Let's be within this range.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Yeah, exactly.

All right.

Very cool.

Well, I'm excited to read whatever draft
you end up sending my way with, whether

it's this first draft or a, a revised
first draft or whatever comes my way.

But I, I know a little
bit about the story.

I'm excited to, to see how this
one comes together for you.

So let's talk about
sizzles today, Garrett.

You've done sizzles.

I have not done a sizzle.

I, well, that's not true.

I have done a, a sizzle for a TV show that
we did a pilot for, but instead of a full

pilot, we did about a seven minute sizzle.

So we have some experience here.

Have you done more than the one you
did for carpenter, or is that really

like the one experience of doing
kind of a sizzle that you've had?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: No,
I've done several and I'm trying to

think for, for each of my films that
have gone through and received funding.

much as I've kind of not fought it,
but tried to avoid, you know, putting

that energy and effort into a sizzle
when I think the majority of my films,

you know, Sarata and, and Freetown
and Yeah, and the Carpenter and

Faith of Angels even had some sort
of sizzle before funding went through

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
That's right.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: In,
in, you know, quality and execution.

at some point, like video is put to
music, put to titles, put to images,

it creates a sizzle that people
go, oh, okay, I'll get behind this.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Well,
let's talk about the two that you've,

you slash we have done together.

So with the carpenter, you know, you
went out, you had a decent budget, you

spent time and you had a crew, and you
had a cast, and you had a location,

and you traveled there and you put
together a really solid, like this

is what the movie could look like.

Level sizzle and with faith of angels.

You know, we were up, if I'm assuming the,
the same thing that you're thinking of.

We went up and we interviewed one of the,
the actual people from the actual events.

And you know, in the moment, in,
in a mind, deep into mind, we pull

out our cell phones and me and the
production designer are filming while

you're asking questions and that kind
of turned into a sizzle of sorts.

And so let's talk about,
first off, what is a sizzle?

Let's get into why you would use one and
then we can ask more questions there.

But like, these are two different things.

One had a big budget, one had no
budget, and you took our footage and

you put some music and some subtitles
on it, and you called it good.

So what is a sizzle Garrett?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I've used it, Daren.

I've used a sizzle in that term and
saying, look, what is this visual

element, this very short, sample
of what this movie is going to feel

and sound and look like and present.

so, yes, for Faith of Angels or for
an independent movie, and I've done

this before where it has been cell
phone video of either a subject of

the film or location or something
with titles and music and tone that

presents almost is teaser trailer,
on, on what the, what the movie is.

And.

And then as you've described, all the
way up to the carpenter where it was,

you know, this couple hundred thousand
dollars budgeted sizzle where we shot

for several days and pre-produced and
did essentially a short film and it

had a six minute collection of key
scenes from the movie that show to

potential investors or distributors.

Really, again, what this movie is.

So both, both of those, depending
on whatever level they are, I

mean, we're calling those sizzles.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
an, does that answer your question?

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
it totally did.

I'm gonna add to it as well.

So I've, I've been involved
with I guess two of these now.

I've done a couple of short films, but
none of them were really sizzles in

the sense that we're talking about 'em.

And I like the, the term proof of concept
for what I'm about to say, because.

Really, they're often used to convince
someone to show someone that you can do

what you're promising you can do, right?

When you're going out and
raising money for a movie.

When you're trying to attract an
actor and say, look, I'm a, I'm

a director worth working with.

I, I know how to tell a good story.

I know how to get emotional
emotion on screen.

I know how to get the right look.

A lot of times, you know, an actor
I'm thinking specifically of John

Michael Finley for Faith Angels.

You know, we sent him that sizzle,
and I think that was part of what made

him feel really comfortable coming out
and doing the movie with us, because

he goes, oh, Garrett gets it right?

And you and I have had this
conversation before of like that

term, oh, he gets it or she gets it.

That just means that, you know, they.

Understand the way that we work
and they understand the way that

we see, we share values when it
comes to like how film works.

And so being able to show someone that
you get it, that you know how to tell

a good story, get emotion on screen
make something that's a production

value that's worth investing in, those
are, to me, the things you're proving

in a proof of concept or sizzle.

And so the other experience I had was.

In 2019 in between seasons, I was working
as a senior producer on relative race.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: Hm.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: I had
someone who came to me and said, look, I,

I've got a friend who has an idea for a
TV show about dogs with interesting jobs.

I was like, that sounds cool.

And I was kind of in
this reality TV space.

And so I was, I was an obvious choice.

I had done some work with
this investor before.

And she's like, I'm gonna back it.

He's gonna put some money up.

We've got like $15,000 I think
it was, to, to shoot a thing.

I was like, well, you can't, you probably
could, but in my world, you can't shoot a

t an episode of tv, a full pilot episode
for $15,000 because A, I wouldn't want to.

Because if I can prove that I
can do it for 15,000, how am I

gonna ask for two or 300,000 or
150,000 per episode from a network?

If I, if I just did it for 15,
they're gonna go, well, just keep

doing what you're doing at 15.

I'm like, but I didn't pay myself.

Like, that's the ticket, right?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: I don't
wanna do a full episode for 15 plus.

It was, you wanna show the production
value that's possible and on a movie,

if it's costing you $30,000 a day.

To make that movie.

Well, you should probably spend
around $30,000 a day for your

proof of concept or your sizzle so
that the production value matches.

Now, you don't have to have a crew of 30
people or a cast of 20 people or whatever

on set, but it should definitely look
like within the same kind of budget range.

And so that's why I said look.

Let's do five to eight minutes,
let's do some interviews, let's do

some B roll, let's do some music.

Let's cut together something that
emotionally hits all the right notes and

proves that we can do something that looks
like it could be on a discovery channel

or an Apple TV or Hulu or whatever.

And that's where we ended up pitching
the thing and we got a lot of

meetings and then COVID happened.

And so the whole project kind of just
like got forgotten in 20 20, 20 21.

But we were able to put a proof of concept
in front of major networks, and we were

taking meetings because instead of trying
to stretch 15,000 into a full half hour

or hour long episode, we did like a four
or five minute sizzle and it worked.

And so those are my experiences with it.

But I, I kind of agree with you.

It's a way to show visually this
is what we're trying to make.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: One
of the things that we didn't, that, I

wanted to make sure when we, when we
do sizzles, we talk about, oh, okay.

Showing what it is.

We need to be real clear
that it is not a trailer.

You're not making a teaser, you're
not making a trailer for the movie.

So I, I feel like that a good
sizzle tell the story and not just.

The hook the movie, you're not, you're
not asking the audience to ask questions.

You're asking the audience
to know the story.

Like, oh, okay, that's great.

I wanna be a part of that.

And angel Studios has a lot of,
has, has their torch program, right?

Where you make torches, and that's one of
the things that they are very clear on.

I say, look, telling this torch,
send in a trailer for your movie.

You show us what the movie is in
a condensed period of time, Mike.

So, okay, so that's kind of

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Now, Daren, as a producer, how

do you, or what's your take
on how much money to spend?

We have a very limited amount of money
to make an independent film, right?

You're dealing one to $2 million
budgets, and now we want to take

30,000 a day and film a sizzle.

But you mentioned like, Hey, we
didn't even use the main star

of the movie in the Sizzle.

We used it to get the main star.

So how do you justify
spending that much money?

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Yeah, so I have two answers to this.

First is I, I'm big on development.

I would prefer that every movie
that I work on has a 10% of the

budget is set aside for development.

And that's a certain
amount of time as well.

It's not just the money.

So on a million dollar budget, I'm
literally saying we should spend a

hundred thousand dollars on development.

And that can include everything from the
script writing process to the sizzle, to,

you know, the kind of trips that you took,
like going out and doing a location scout

or those types of things, pre-product.

Like pre pre-production.

So I'm saying 10% of the budget and three
to six months at least of time, so that

you can develop it into a story that's
worth telling and investing all the money?

into.

So that's one answer.

But the other one is, well, it depends
on where you're at in the process.

Because if you have an investor
who's like, Hey, I, I'm ready

to put up a million dollars, and
that's the budget for the movie.

You kind of don't need a sizzle
because who are you trying to convince?

Like who are you trying to
show or prove something to?

You've already proved it through your
name, your brand, your, the story,

the script, whatever it is that you
sent, and so you didn't need a sizzle

in order to get to the next milestone.

I think sizzles are often used
to get that next milestone, so

maybe you got a little bit of.

Development money, or you're putting up
a little bit of your own money, so you're

gonna do a sizzle and that's gonna be
something, an asset that you can use to

go and attract, cast, go and attract a
writer, go and attract an investor, go

and attract a distributor like we did.

Actually, I did another sizzle, like
a proof of concept back in 2015.

It was a eight minute
thing that we took to a FM.

The entire goal of spending $15,000
to make this thing was to have

something visual to show at a FM,
which set us apart from everyone else.

It was helping us get the next
milestone of we want a sales

agent and we want investors.

And so I think two sides of the,
like, two ways to answer that.

One Is if it's part of the development
process, it's gonna help you get

to the next phase, then great.

And invest in it.

But if you don't need it I don't
think it's a required step in the

process of making an indie film.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Is it recoupable?

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Oh it, that's a big question and

I would, I'm gonna say it depends.

So you can recoup if you
have an audience, right?

If you have an audience of
people that is going to.

Line up and set their calendars
and show up at 10:00 AM on a

Tuesday for the drop on YouTube.

Yeah.

you could probably get a little
bit of money off of that.

You know, I know people who have done
that or who have raised money on a

Kickstarter to do a proof of concept.

So you're bringing in your
earliest backers or your earliest

investors on a Wefunder or
Republic type crowd fund raise.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: And so
I would say it's easier to pre-order

those types of things or pre-fund
those things than recoup them because

there really isn't a market for short
proofs of concept sizzles, right?

Like those are expected to be free.

You don't pay money to go to a
festival to watch short films.

Generally speaking, they're
just part of the programming.

And so I would say no, but you gotta
think of it in different terms of, oh,

we didn't recoup directly by selling this
thing, but the sizzle got us, the budget

got us, the actor got us the distributor,
whatever it is, and it did its job.

And the value is inherent there
as opposed to a monetary value

directly from selling or streaming
or the purchases of the thing.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Yeah, I agree, Daren.

I know, I know.

I kind of put you on the
spot on that question.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: like it.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
And you answered it like a true pro.

And I, I, I would agree
with what you've said.

I think I mean, it depends on the budget.

If you say, Hey, how much did we spend
on the sizzle for faith of Angels?

I don't know.

We spent, whatever we spent was outta
our own pockets, and yet when the movie

was funded, of those resources went to.

production expenses for
the script and sizzle and

development and things like that.

And so, yeah, you're right.

You're not selling, there's no
transaction in which the sizzle is

being paid for if it's part of the
development cost of the movie, it's

a hundred percent within that budget.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

Okay.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
oh, go ahead.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Do you have kind of a framework

or a system for doing sizzles?

Is there a, you know, a trailer
is pretty standardized, right?

It's two minutes or so or less.

Sometimes two and a half, some
rarely three, but like two minutes.

It's going to set the
musical emotional tone.

It's gonna give you some of the biggest
shots and the biggest moments, and also

tell you kind of what the story is that
they're setting up the promise so that

they can pay it off with the movie.

When you buy a ticket do you have.

Do you Garrett have a framework
or a system or a standardized way

of putting a sizzle together, or
is it different for every project?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: Oh,
that's kind of a, that's a good question.

And no, there's no stand, I don't
have a standard or framework, you

know, I've seen some distributors go,
okay, we're going to cut a trailer,

and they immediately go to minute
seven and 11 and 22 and you go, okay.

And you could tell.

So that is not the
approach with the sizzle.

But I do you know, generally you
want to say what is the hook for this

movie and how is it paid off, and
like those two elements of the sizzle.

So if I have a script, I'll, I will,
I'll, I'll look for the hook in the

movie, the payoff, and then what are
three beats or three, you know, visual

elements, al not, not quite trailer
moments, but at least three different

locations or looks that you go, okay.

Great, that's, there's some
depth and some meaning to the

movie that we're gonna watch.

So for Carpenter, you know, we showed,
hey, this movie's about fighting.

This movie has Jesus in it.

And then we showed a chase scene and
like a, like a, a healing moment.

And this subplot.

That didn't actually make it
in the end of the film, but,

or in the, in the final film.

But this subplot between maybe the
corrupt brother of this fighter, right?

And that, that was kind
of our sizzle moment.

And we filmed for three days.

We filmed those moments
created its own script.

I mean, the sizzle does
need to have a script.

You're not just randomly shooting.

You know, if, if you're
spending money randomly shooting

whatever you can capture.

We designed shots and said, how are
we going to approach this as is a

standalone, sizzle, standalone piece?

And then we were able to execute there.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

So is it typical to base the
content of the sizzle on, like from

the script that you've written?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Yes, if there's a script for

sure, definitely 'cause that those
are gonna be the key moments.

It's funny that we're talking
about this today, Daren I,

this morning I got a call from.

a contact who that I've been working with
for a little bit to develop a, a movie.

It's kind of, it's their concept.

They were pitching me and
approaching Three Coin Productions,

and so we're being very helpful
in, in supporting them in that.

And they said, Hey, we're going
to, now we'd like to do a sizzle.

And they, they do not have a script
yet, but because we've been developing

their pitch package and their materials
that they're using to raise money.

Very familiar with the story.

And so they said, will you please
write a script for the sizzle?

So, you know, that's one thing
where you say, okay, know the

story and anybody can do this.

You know the story.

So you think, okay, what
is the inciting incident?

What's, what's on page seven, page 11?

What are these pages and
pull moments from those?

Write those moments out.

And that'll be, that'll become, the
this eight to 10 page sizzle script.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Nice.

Okay.

Interesting.

So I, if I'm sitting here thinking that,
like if I'm a listener of this show,

I've never done a sizzle before and
I'm trying to go a, do I do one or not?

I think we've kind of
answered that question.

But if you don't have the money, if you're
sitting here going, man, 30 or a hundred

K to do a sizzle is a lot of money.

I could make a whole movie with that.

Right.

So maybe the consideration is what if I
do one of these sizzles where I'm just

pulling shots from movies that have
already been created or at this point, you

know, going in and using a, a generative
generative AI tool that can do video.

And why not just generate shots that way
for 20 bucks a month compared to, you

know, hundreds of thousands of dollars
as we're we've been talking about,

were tens of thousands of dollars.

What's been your experience with that?

I think most directors probably did
their first sizzle by pulling from eight

or 10 movies that they love, that they
want ar their movie to look like, and

they go, it'll look and feel like this.

Have you found success with those?

What are your thoughts on those?

And is that a, is that an okay
approach or does it not serve as well?

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I think that I, I think what

you're describing is more in my
consideration, more of a look book.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Hmm.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Than, than a sizzle free movie,

which is fine, which is great.

If I'm hiring a director or if
I'm a director wanting to be

hired, I'm gonna read a script.

And you're right, I'm not gonna spend
any money other than my own, do, you

know, sweat equity to show them, show
whatever producer is that I know what the

look and feel of this movie should be.

And so yes, I'm gonna do a, a rip
reel from other, movies and sources,

you know, and even stock footage to
show them, say, this is the look.

is what I'd like to execute as a director.

I'd be real careful about the AI thing.

Again, if you're saying that as a
sizzle I think part of the sizzle

is, is showing what we can execute.

And so, hey, this is
what we're able to do.

Now, if you're a first time director,
that's, you've got a lot to prove.

Like there's a lot on a sizzle.

Say, Hey, we can execute that.

If you've done a number of these films
and within the budget range that your,

that your next project is going to be,
maybe that, maybe that sizzle isn't

as important to show your skillset
'cause you've already proven that.

But but it is just maybe to show
the, the concept and the gra that

you have a grasp on the story.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah,
I'm gonna give a, an alternate take

when it comes to the AI stuff because
I've seen sizzle reels or lookbook

reels that have been cut together by
directors and said, this is the, you

know, this is the sizzle for our movie.

And I watch it and I go.

You don't, you don't know the difference
between a very flat, bright image and

one that's very contrasty and dark and
cinematic because you're cutting the

two together as if they're one movie.

And it just doesn't visually make sense.

And I've seen that happen.

I've seen musical choices that don't
match the visuals for me at least.

And as a producer looking at it
with kind of a, a, an eye towards,

do I wanna work with this director?

A lot of times the answer is no
for the reasons I just stated.

Like, if it's inconsistent and if it
kind of shows the director doesn't

have a consistent image idea for
this movie, then I'm, I'm like, eh,

I don't think it's gonna work out.

If you're a director and you
learn how to prompt an AI tool

to give you consistent output.

Cinematic lighting, cinematic music that
matches, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

To me, that shows one of the key things
a director needs to be able to do, which

is express what they want to see, because
you're gonna be doing that to actors,

you're gonna be doing that to production
designer, to a costume designer,

to a cinematographer, to a gaffer.

Like there's a whole crew of people
that you have to be able to say.

I want it to look like this.

I want to be on this size lens.

I wanna be here, I want to track
from here to here, and I want these

things to happen on set or, and if
you can't do that then that's, you

know, one of the most important
things that you do as a director.

So I would be, I, I haven't
seen any yet, I haven't seen any

directors send me an a fully AI
generated sizzle or lookbook reel.

But I'm curious to see
how I feel, how I react.

When one does come across my desk, because
it might be a better way to show that

you've got some chops as a director.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah,
it's an interesting take and, and I think

where you have to make sure that there's
no gap is in between what you're creating

with ai and then that's gonna be part
of the process of the movie or if you.

Are going to match that value and
quality and execution as a director.

Because writing out a prompt and
talking to a crew of 30 people

is an entirely different thing.

And it's even okay if the director
knows, Hey, this is what I want.

This is what I want, this is what I want.

But then to know how to execute that
or to correct it when it's wrong

is a, is a different skill set.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
but yeah, I mean, I, at the end of

the day, Daren, I mean, it's kinda
like we always say, Hey, nobody's

ever made this movie before, right?

So you don't know if, if a sizzle
is working for the movie that

you're currently making, and
you're gonna do that via AI and it

works great, let's talk about it.

I wanna hear why it worked.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah, I
will, I will second what you said though,

which is if, if someone came to me and
said, this is the movie we're gonna make.

And didn't say, it's not gonna be ai,
though, it's gonna be live action.

I'd be worried that they were
pitching me an AI generated movie,

which I'm not interested in making.

And so in that same breath as
like, Hey, here's a lookbook I

put together, I used ai, but we're
going to, you know, ultimately film

this with cameras and actors and
people and sets and all that stuff.

Okay, great.

Then I can look at it from a, a lens of.

This is visually and
emotionally what they're after.

Cool.

As opposed to this is a version of the end
product that they're trying to get funded.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yep.

Yeah.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Nice.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
In, in, in the vein of still talking

about you know, the script breaking
down the script and things like that.

The sizzle, even shooting a sizzle is
very, very helpful in that down the

script process and saying, okay, as
a director I'm gonna go out with my

iPhone, or, and, and whether this is
the sizzle or not, but at least just

like shooting very basic concept scenes
of movies that are in your script.

Can be incredibly helpful.

I've found it helpful when I'm at
different locations or things like that,

even if I'm with my DP or not you know,
opening up the, the iPhone, putting on

Artemis or, you know, some other lens
identifier and testing out angles.

Say, okay, if we shoot here and
here and here from, from across the

room and then close up and wide.

it's, it's a great tool in helping to
communicate what we're trying to deliver.

So I don't know if Daren, that probably
doesn't fit in the sizzle topic, but

it's kind of in that same approach
to these tools, whatever you have

maybe solve some of the problems that
might come up in, in making the film.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah,
it's really smart, especially you've

talked about this before of like
sometimes you've done short films just to.

Try out a style or a technique, and
you can do that in these sizzle reels

as well, and go, wow, that camera
movement really worked in the sizzle.

I wanna replicate it with the bigger,
better camera lenses, lighting and crew

that we have at our disposal on set.

But we know it's gonna, we
know we can pull it off.

But I, also think that sizzles
are important because, and this is

probably a another episode that we're
gonna do very shortly, which is your

marketing should be starting right now.

If you're making a sizzle, if you're
writing your first, you know, 10

or a hundred pages of your script,
like you should be marketing that

thing and telling people about
it, because right now it's free.

You can just post things on the
internet and tell people, this is

coming and I'm working on this.

You don't have to, you know, have
a release date and a poster yet,

but you can definitely say, this
is what I'm working on today.

And I'm getting, I'm gearing up to do
the sizzle, and here's a location I found

and here's some pages I wrote today.

And I'm really happy with this
interchange between these two

characters or whatever it is.

So a sizzle is a great marketing tool, not
just to get your, your investment or your

distributor, or your actor that you're
trying to get, but to tell the audience.

This is the kind of thing I'm
trying to make, and we're in

the process of doing that.

We're using this sizzle to get these
things follow along, make sure you

have a page for your business or for
the movie, a way to capture emails,

like all those things come into play.

And you can say, Hey, you wanna watch
the sizzle put in your email, and then

you're building your list from day one.

So throughout this season of development
and you know, getting into pre-production,

I'm gonna be harping on marketing,
marketing, marketing, marketing,

because we can't forget to do that part.

That's half the success of your film.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: I
can see, can see why you're saying,

I can see why you wanna do that.

Yeah.

And maybe that's all I need to say,
but I'm not gonna, 'cause I, because

you know, me and I, we could talk,
but, but as long as you don't like,

make the I, I don't know what the
term is, but you, you become your own.

You start to believe your own hype or
you become your own, you know, hype man.

And then, and then you don't deliver
the film or the audience gets fatigued,

and you're like, oh, this is our
sizzle and this is page one, and this

is what the title page looks like.

And, and this, this is the
shoes I'm wearing today.

You know?

And this is like, come on
guys, just make the movie.

You know?

So

that's probably the difference, that
that's probably that balance between

director side and then your side of
the producer side and saying, look.

We have got to build this audience,
which is the right mindset.

But as a director, please protect
yourselves and say the images that

you're putting in from an audience
are going to represent the film.

Even those early images.

So if it's sizzle, you better put
serious watermarks and even time code

window and things like that, make
them know, Hey, this is not the movie.

This is, you are on the inside of this.

All right?

You're a part of this team that's building
this like, here's this underdeveloped.

we did.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yes.

I, I support those things and I think
that is part of the marketing you, you're

very clear at like, this is what this is.

It's not the movie.

And I think you said it
perfectly, which is like, use

it as exclusive stuff for your.

Top fans and get those top fans on a
exclusive part of your email list, a

VIP group on your email list and saying,
look, you're the only ones that get this.

This isn't going on Instagram and YouTube
for the masses, because they won't get

it if it comes up in someone's feed.

They don't have context.

But if you've been.

Teasing it for two months saying,
Hey, we're making the sizzle.

Hey, we're editing the sizzle.

Hey, we're in final color for the sizzle.

It's coming out next week.

Make sure you're on the email
list because we're only gonna

send it to people who are there.

Well, now you're controlling the context
and you're building super fans from day,

from the earliest days of the process.

I think my.

I, I'm more than happy to say I'm over
emphasizing the importance of marketing,

but I'd much rather do that than
get to three weeks out from release.

And no one has heard a peep about
this movie because they've been

holding it so close to the chest
and so of worried about people

seeing it, that they're now nervous.

They're like, well, why haven't we
seen anything about this before?

I don't know if I'm, I don't know
if the trailer did it for me.

I'd much rather have 18 months of lead up
and tension building with an audience who

really cares about me as a filmmaker and
the other filmmakers that are involved to

say, oh, I can't wait to see this movie.

I'm gonna tell all my friends
about it 'cause it's finally out.

And that's, that's what I'm aiming for.

That's the outcome That I'm optimizing
for with this whole approach.

So.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
makes sense.

And Daren, you as a good producer
like who's dialed in, who controls.

That whole process of the
film, I think, yeah, a director

should trust you with that.

Like, here's my raw elements.

you know, don't spoil this,

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Right.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: go.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: I get,
I get worried about myself spoiling stuff.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Okay.

So are there any other lingering
questions we have about sizzles?

I think we've covered quite a, a
wide gamut as far as why you would

do one, how much you time and effort
and money you should spend on one.

What it's for.

Who it's for.

Is there anything else?

Like as far as the actual producing.

A sizzle.

I mean, it's pretty straightforward.

That's the stuff that we know how to do.

So I, I feel like we don't need to
cover it because like we understand the

production part, like that, that that
season of this show is gonna be very

short because that's the part we all have
spent our entire careers figuring out

how to show up and make movies on set.

It's everything else around it
that is sometimes forward to us.

'cause we have overemphasized
the focus on being on set.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
Hopefully this is helpful to, if, if

you're considering what the next step is
to get, as far as breaking down a script

and taking it to a next level of sizzle
is a great tool to be able to do that.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I will say we used the carpenter

sizzle, we keep referring to that.

Maybe we should put a link to
that in the show or something.

But, we, I don't know if you remember
being on set in South Africa, you know,

sitting with our production team and
watching down the sizzle and be like,

okay, this is what we're creating.

And they go, So it was a
great way to communicate.

It did become, of evolved into this
look book there there's a lot of

value in mileage that you can get
out of a, of a well-produced sizzle.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I love that.

Yeah, it's exciting.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
one this is.

this is in line with what
we were talking about.

Have you noticed?

Right now they're shooting what
is it, Spider-Man, the next one.

Spider-Man home from home or something.

And d they're releasing more footage
online of the production process,

which is really kind of neat.

Daren.

So, so it, it.

It, it agrees that 100% with what
you're saying about kind of creating

public and start building that audience.

Obviously fans are gonna be watching
this, but you see like Tom Holland

in the rig, on the back of a truck
as the truck's driving through the

city, and I think that's, that's new.

It used to be this top secret thing.

Nobody's gonna look at what we're
doing and, and they're shifting

and saying, let's create in public.

Let's build our audience now.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah,

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: I
think I find that to be very fun to

watch and, and it's kind of baiting
me for what the movie's gonna be.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: I love to
see it and it's creating that tension a

year out or two years out whenever it is.

Going, man, I want to see how
that, that I just watched on social

media translates to the screen.

It doesn't matter what the story
is, like you're just building

tension to go, that looks awesome.

I can't wait to see the movie.

That's the subtext that you're creating.

And so it's the same
idea with your sizzle.

And I think that's maybe a good
place to to end on is to basically

say, look, what is it for?

Who is it for?

Think of the outcome of the sizzle.

What is it intended to do?

Because if you just go and make one.

Then you have it and
you go, well, now what?

Then you're, oh, well I guess I'll submit
it to Angel and I guess I'll put it

on social media and I guess I'll, I'll
show it to my investors and like, it's

not gonna be super effective because it
wasn't developed to be super effective.

The same way you were talking earlier
about how important the preparation is, I

think that goes into the sizzle as well.

Are you using it to raise money?

Are you using it to attract talent?

Are you using it to build an audience?

I think it's hard to do all those things
with one sizzle, so I would pick one.

That's your main thing.

Go.

This is intended to get us funding from
these types of individuals and anything

else that comes from it is great.

That's awesome.

You want those things, but you can't
optimize for three different outcomes.

You can't aim for three
targets with a single arrow,

and so it's really what it is.

You get really targeted with.

What is this for?

What's the intention behind it?

Why are we going to execute it this way?

Because it's gonna have that sort of
result with the intended audience.

Even if that audience is an
audience of one or an audience of

10 potential investors, that's okay.

If it helps you get your, your
fundraised, then you're golden and it

worked, and then, then you can use it
for marketing and other distribution,

other channels, but at least make
sure that it's being created with

intention for an outcome, not just for.

For fun, just go make a short film.

If you're gonna make something for fun, a
sizzle has a little bit more intention to

help you get something on the other end.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
That's a good, that's a good summary.

Yeah.

Well, and keep it up.

I mean, I know that you're, you're
in into of doing a sizzle right now.

I've got one that I'm supposed
to write and that will

eventually lead to shooting that.

So there definitely,
definitely a need for it.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

Very cool.

I'm excited to talk more
about the project when it.

Comes together.

And so I, I'm very big on like, don't
talk about it until it's like a done deal.

It's papered it's you money
in the bank Or, those things.

'cause I've certainly made that
mistake early in my career.

I was like, oh yeah, we're gonna
make this movie and it's $3

million and blah, blah, blah.

And then.

You know, I'm, I'm doing the thing
you warned us about, which is like,

don't be, don't believe your own hype
and don't drink your own Kool-Aid.

Like, just because someone said Yeah,
it's really cool, doesn't mean they're

gonna write a check for 2 million.

So like, live and learn.

That was, that was my early twenties.

I was young and impressionable.

And so yeah, I, I will talk about
this next little sizzle proof of

concept project when it happens.

Might be a few weeks now
that we're waiting still, so.

Good one today.

I'm excited.

And I would, I also say if you have
questions about sizzles you're talking

to do verified experts on sizzles, and
so you should ask us questions and we

can answer them in a later episode.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416: Yeah.

or or other, or other questions.

And again verified expert
has a little asterisk on it.

It's our experience and we'll
share what our experience is.

But we do have experience in these areas.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416:
I mean, I validated you and you

validated me, and so We both qualify.

garrett-batty_1_08-18-2025_150416:
We believe each other's hype.

Awesome.

Thanks, Daren.

Great great episode.

Great chatting with you.

And thank you to our
sponsors and our listeners.

daren-smit_1_08-18-2025_150416: Awesome.

Thanks, Garrett.

It's a good one.

Thanks for joining us.

If you are enjoying truly independent.

Please share and subscribe so you
don't miss the rest of the journey.

Today's episode was edited by
Michael Bradford and produced

by Three Coin Productions.