S3 EP03 | Navigating The Development Process in Indie Filmmaking with Joel Ackerman
This season of Truly Independent is
supported by the Help Them See Foundation.
Help Them See is a nonprofit dedicated
to supporting feature films that
inspire faith, hope, and connection.
By partnering with filmmakers
that help them see Foundation
brings meaningful stories to life
and shares them with audiences
worldwide, making a lasting cultural
impact through the power of cinema.
Learn more and discover how you can
be part of the movement by visiting.
Help them see foundation.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Welcome to another episode
of Truly Independent Daren.
How are you?
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I'm great man.
How are you?
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: I'm al.
Always good is, I look forward to
this, these Mondays every week.
Ha.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Me too,
and I'm excited for our topic today.
we got a guest here.
If you're watching,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
have a guest.
Joel Ackerman is with us.
Joel, how are you doing, friend?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: am doing great.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
welcome to the show, Joel.
It's like, I'm sure plenty of people
here in Utah would be like, oh yeah,
Daren and Joel probably know each
other, but we've never met before.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: So
grateful to, have you here, but also very
excited to talk to you 'cause you have a
long and storied history in this industry.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well thank you.
I love what you're doing with the
podcast and obviously your work as well.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
thank you.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Thanks, Joel.
Yes.
So our podcast, yeah, I mean
our whole goal is to demystify
the independent film experience.
And there are just so many
and questions and you get into
it and you go, this is hard.
Is this supposed to be this hard?
And it is.
And we're here to just
say, here's why it is.
so this season we're talking about kind
of development, getting the story right?
The script, right.
And breaking it down into being able to.
right into pre-production.
Joel, you and I spoke in a separate
conversation recently, and I said, be on
this podcast to talk about everything that
you do because, you do so much in exactly
what we're talking about this season.
So thank you, thank you for being here.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah, of course.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
let's get into that just for a second.
Can you just give us a brief, introduction
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
So, I, most people probably know
me if they know me, know me from
my work in commercials, writing and
directing viral style ads, or a brush,
pooey, those kind of style ads and.
after the success of Poopourri, I started
getting invited to do development.
It was after the success of Aura
Brush where I started getting
invited to do development.
So I developed Red Bull Music's
first web series and then after
Poopourri, I got invited by.
Susie Cameron, who's married to James
Cameron, to do some development on
a documentary project that they're
doing for one of their nonprofits.
and now I currently work with Angel
Studios doing development for them.
So I've long been a story
guy, improving scripts.
And yeah, I've got all kinds
of stories about that, even
from my acting days, improving
scripts or attempting to, anyway.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: For
our listeners, Joel, really quick, I
mean, I'm sure there are people who are
well versed in what development is, and
we've been talking about a little bit
on the show, but what's your kind of
definition or how do you see development?
What does it mean to be a development
exec or to do development at
these different companies?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, from
a high level, it really is picking the
most compelling stories and then making
sure that those stories are as compelling
and as entertaining as possible.
There's other aspects, that I'm
less involved in, like legal, you
know, where they're having to get
rights or package the deal, whatever.
But, I'm really brought on to improve
the script, make sure the story is really
strong, and before that also brought
on to say, Hey, is this a good story?
Is this.
Worth telling.
Is this worth investing
a ton of money into?
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
Awesome.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: so I
might have a script, you know, say, okay,
I'm a screenwriter, I've got this idea I
wrote in, you know, wrote my first script,
or I've got my a hundred page, you know,
third draft, and at what point am I.
Looking at, you know, a development expert
or a development individual like you to
say, help me now make this better, or is
it even before that, before the draft?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, so
usually, you know, it's a good point.
I mean, technically you are
developing the thing, but usually
it's when you get involved with.
Some kind of studio, whether it's
a production studio or whether it's
a distribution studio, which angel
who I work for kind of bridges a
little bit of both those worlds.
But it's usually once you're involved
with, the studio and other person.
So if you're just working on your
script, could call it development
because you're still developing the
script, it's not really development
until you're of saying, all right.
Is there interest in making this?
if not a lot of interest, how could
we make you more interested in
making this, how can we make this?
or we know that there's interest in making
this now, let's make it really good.
I don't know if that
answers your question.
Does it?
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
That does.
Perfect.
Yes.
I'm in fact going to move on.
so, with, okay, so now, As an independent
filmmaker, what are some of the
consistent, you know, tripping points or
areas of your, like going, okay, I, as a
development expert, this is a common thing
that I see with independent filmmakers.
Does that exist?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: as a development
expert, the most common thing I see
with independent filmmakers is lack
of talent, and that sounds mean, but
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Wow.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: if
you're just looking at the sheer
numbers, that's true, right?
learn, read one book, get the
screenwriter's Bible or something.
Learn.
Proper formatting and don't make dumb
mistakes if you're, especially if you're
gonna take your script to a studio.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: let's
assume that everyone listening to
this podcast is really talented.
then the problems become.
you are super passionate, but you don't
see the holes because you're super
passionate or you don't see like, well,
yeah, you're super passionate, but.
Where's the market for the story?
Why will people want to see this story?
we can set aside talent and say
the other thing that, you see even
with the talented ones, even with
Hollywood talented, this happens where.
They don't get, I don't know
if it's because, people just
figure, oh, you're talented so
you must know what you're doing.
For some reason, people
don't get enough critique.
the best writers that I work
with and the best independent
filmmakers, crave the critique.
They want you to show them what's
wrong with their script and they.
Definitely don't get offended when you
tell them what's wrong with their script.
they are hungry for it.
They hunger and thirst after improvement.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
That's awesome.
How, from your side, because I
could see both sides of this.
I've done development and I've
done, I've been on the writer side.
How do you as a development exec,
quickly earn the trust of the writer
or the writer, director, who you're
working with so that, because I think
in my experience, or in my mind, maybe
I'm making it up, but like there's.
There's an instant where if they trust
you, they'll listen to your feedback.
And if they don't, then it doesn't matter
how good you are, they don't trust you.
And so they're going to get defensive
about their project or their script.
there's this spectrum of trust and you
gotta click over to one side of it to
where you can go, okay, we're just both
trying to make this as good as it can be.
Let's work on it together.
How do you as a development exec.
Get to that point with the, collaborator.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, you can't
force them to get to that point, but
you're right, they, if they're wise, and I
always tell people like, give your script
to everybody if one person says something
and if it's only one person, then usually
you don't have to worry so much about it.
But if a lot of people are giving
you the same feedback, but if you
give your script only to people who
don't know about scripts, and they
don't know how to diagnose a problem,
or if they're just your friends
and they're just gonna tell you.
What they think you want to hear, then
those people don't really count anyway.
Now, they may give you useful feedback,
in which case you should take it.
But getting back to your question,
Daren, I think the biggest thing I have
found effective in getting people to
trust me is something that I can't do.
I rely on, the other executives at
Angel to Build up the trust in me, for
me, because if you go in and tout your
own credentials and your own skills, it
sounds, you know, people don't believe,
someone who toots their own horn, But
if, the other angel executives talk
about, Hey, this guy did development for
James Cameron and this guy is, you know,
written all this hugely successful media
and he kind of knows what the market's
doing then it can help them get there.
But at the end of the day,
I do really think it's.
Does the writer have the maturity
and their own wisdom to seek after
and listen to anyone who says, Hey,
did you think about these things?
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Hmm.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Well, I'll add to that, Joel.
And, I mean, I think that, we've
interacted briefly on an Angel project.
I don't know if you remember that
or if you were involved or At
some point I was brought in to
look at a script for Angel and,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yes,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: a
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: recall
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
It was a short series.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: And
Joel, you were attached as a development
executor or something like that,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah,
who was overseeing development.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
and the input that.
made, I mean, the, script was
at a level when I received it.
your development recommendations
or changes or requests or input,
I mean, it just ratcheted it
up, to where it needed to be.
And so, I mean, to answer Darren's
question for you without tuning
your own horn, I mean, the
proof is in the pudding, right?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, thank you.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
from what I saw, I was like, oh,
he doesn't need to be built up.
Just trust him once and the
job, it will be worth it.
It'll make an impact.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, thank you.
And you know, especially give,
talking about the angel ecosystem
because I'm well versed.
Before I did development at Angel,
I was creative director and.
So, especially if we're talking about
within Angel's ecosystem, they have no
reason to not trust me because I think
with the project we were talking that
you're referring to, you know, that
project got made and then, went through
the Angel Guild voting process and passed
with one of the higher scores I believe
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Guild has.
And so, know, if they want
to look at that, Then they
have no reason to not take my
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: seriously.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Or if you wanna look at Aura Brush or
Poopourri or any of the other things,
what you said, I do ads like that.
And the correction is admit like omit
the, like you invented those ads.
people are doing ads, like what
you're doing and it's very,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: I did those ads.
Thank you, Garrett.
Yes, I did those ads.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yes.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I think you should own that, Joel.
so we've got development with
Angels or excuse me, angel Studios.
You talked about developing a documentary
with Susie Cameron, sounds like it
had, its ups and downs or challenges.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
And so this is actually a
really interesting, story of
development hell, which I'm sure
your listeners can relate to,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Yeah, I wanna ask about that and
how, you know, when you're there.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah,
so this is interesting because,
independent filmmakers are
trying to do many things, right?
They're not on a studio payroll,
so they're usually, doing maybe
multiple of their own gigs,
whether that's in film or not.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: but they
got a lot of things cooking, right,
to pay the bills and bring home
the bacon and, have the luxury of
necessarily focusing on one project.
Well.
get brought into work for, Susie Cameron,
and there's a story behind that, but
essentially it's, they loved Susie and
her whole family, Jim, and everyone
just loved the Poopourri video and they
quoted it and, you know, all this stuff.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
just for point of reference, that's the
video of the unicorn that poops out.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: you're
thinking of the Squatty Potty
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Pointa
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: The
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Potty.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: video is the
girl in the blue dress sitting on the
toilet and the backgrounds are changing.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yes.
She's got a British accent and, it had
a billion views or something like that.
Just insane.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
they bring me in to work on.
So they're very passionate
about helping the planet, right?
As everyone knows, they are.
and they have a cool project
called One Meal a Day.
it essentially, says, Hey, people
eat plant-based, one meal a day.
You don't have to give up all your
meat and all your, animal-based
products, but just eat plant-based,
one meal a day for the planet.
And they have this great idea.
Susie Susie's so passionate about this and
she has a great idea for a documentary,
which I hope still will come out one day.
the interesting thing is that
There was no creative blockage.
we had the concept I developed very, in
short order, of the full length feature
version and what this would, look like.
And I did it with Susie and she had
great ideas and we put this together.
This was way back in 20 15, 20 16 maybe.
anyway, between 2016 and 2017 maybe.
But what got this thing
stuck in development?
Hell, which is really funny because it's
like, this is the Cameron's, literally
James Cameron and his wife they have
like six kids or something crazy.
and obviously he's busy with his things.
and so it's kind of like the
same thing that independent
filmmakers can get stuck on.
Like if you're a parent and
you have kids Things are gonna
happen, and then COVID happened.
And so it wasn't even like, oh,
we're not finding the right story.
was just a function of time.
And it would be like, she'd be
like, I'm ready to go on this.
And I'd be like, great, let's go.
And then it'd be nine months before
the next time we're able to meet.
so life happens.
to be honest, I eventually had to leave
the project for other reasons, but like,
I don't even know how you address that.
I guess I just share it because I
think it's interesting that even at
the highest level life may be the thing
that like causes your development.
It just is gonna get in the
way of your project sometime,
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
you shouldn't address it,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Somebody,
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
my experience with this is, very
similar in that I've kind of put
it on, here's another spectrum
for you, but like how hungry.
Or what's the appetite for this project?
So if it's hunger, it's the
individuals that are involved.
I've worked with directors and other
writers and people that it's like
a third tier priority in their life
to get this project moving forward.
And all three of us know what
it's like to be hungry and to like
want a project to move forward.
It's the thing that we wanna be
spending all of our time on right now.
So we're really, really hungry.
We're on this far end of the spectrum.
And if we partner with
someone that's like.
Oh, I could take a little bite of that.
That's fine.
It's that, dissonance will
really put you in development.
Hell, pretty quick.
But I think it's similar to a
studio's appetite for a project.
If it's a, we have to have this project.
It's a bidding war.
We got it.
We're.
Moving forward, we put a
million dollars into the script.
We gotta develop this thing
and make it the best ever.
Then you're like, yeah, your hunger and
appetite matches my hunger and appetite.
Let's go.
And there's no hell to go
through because you're aligned.
But if it's a, a thing that was
left over from the previous.
people that were running a studio and
it's on a shelf and it's sitting there
and you're the development exec on it.
It's like, good luck trying to revive that
thing because their appetite is over here
with whatever they're gonna be focused
on during their tenure at that studio.
And we see that all the time with
movies that are in development.
Hell and then get shelved or even
finished movies that get shelved
for whatever reason, tax reasons, or
changing of the guard or whatever.
That's something to look at early on
if you're on the filmmaker side of
this and going, oh, I really want these
people to help me get this thing made.
Well make sure their appetite's the same.
'cause if not, that's to me like
what causes the development?
Hell, I.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I love that analogy.
I think it's really useful.
And the analogy I always
use is the battery.
You know, you have to find someone
who's gonna charge the thing,
and if they don't have the.
Capacity 'cause they're spread
thin or whatever, then they're
not gonna be a good battery.
And that, and I see a lot of overlap
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Yeah, I like that too.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
It is always fascinating to
me as an indie filmmaker.
what triggers then that whatever
project it is to get to that next step.
And I've had projects with studios.
I have independent projects.
Somebody asked me yesterday, are
you working on any fun movies?
didn't want to get into everything but.
the answer is always yes.
I've, I've got six movies and I
have no idea which one is going
to take, ' cause everyone is
gonna be slowly pushed forward.
And then something triggers.
and I told 'em, I said, I'm working
on like six movies, but I don't know
if it's gonna be one of those or
something else that's gonna come in.
and you just never know.
And you would think that, you know
what an interesting concept that
working with the Camerons, where
there's really not an obstacle.
To stop the, not the typical obstacle
where we have lack of financing, lack
of audience, lack of, attachments.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Right.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Those are all clear.
so, yeah, you just never know,
what project to latch onto.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
the other interesting thing about the
Camerons, which I'll say to their credit,
is always tell people for billionaires,
they're incredibly down to earth and
just really good people and sensible.
you know, she's a Midwest gal and.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: So even though
they really, of course have no shortage
of funds, they were still looking at this
from a very, fiscally responsible way.
And they're going, well,
it's a documentary, so we
can't, we're not gonna throw.
the whole bank account at
it and we gotta be able to
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
a way to do it cheap.
And, you know, that's great because it
was probably one of the reasons why they
were talking to me and not someone else.
But, but you know, like, it was also
one of the reasons why it was just
spinning because they, they were
really trying to squeeze the budget so.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
So Joel, you're in.
You've described that situation
and, is there a situation
where you go, okay, this.
is development Utopia, or you know,
this is, Hey, we're in a good spot and
this is how development should work.
There's back and forth, or
what does that look like?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
So I think this is a question I'd
love to get your guys' input on
as well, which is, how do you know
the difference between development?
Hell and just.
Development making sure, because
I'm, we've all seen movies.
Everyone who's listening has seen movies.
they go, well, that could have
used some more development.
You know?
and I think that all the time, especially
as it relates to the script, not, not
even necessarily pre-production, go, you
couldn't have figured something out there.
And I don't know if it's a function
of time, like they just wanted to
get to the production so they didn't
wanna put in the time on the script
or if it's a function of politics.
But to me, good production.
To answer your question, Garrett, to
me, good production when you are seen.
strong idea.
and actually I think it relates to the
project Ed Angel that you mentioned,
which we, I think have to keep
confidential, but a strong idea, a
strong concept that people wanna see.
So there's a, there's an audience
for it, but feeling like we don't
wanna let these people down, so
we gotta get the script right.
And if you're in that space You are just
churning on the script you're making
hopefully big, but acceptable is also
incremental improvements on the script.
But if things are moving forward and
you're really improving the script.
To me, whatever amount of time that
takes is worth it because the script
is the embryo of the film, right?
if you have that wrong,
you're gonna have it deformed.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Right, right.
What does that, okay, but that's
such a subjective process.
I'm sat in studios, in a writer's
room where the executive is
saying, okay, what do I need to do?
I need to dictate, lines to you.
And you go, okay, now we're, this is it.
This is not constructive at all.
you don't need me as a creator.
You need me as a button pusher.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
This is the challenge, right?
It's like, first of all, and you guys
know this, if you've met with a lot
of executives, a lot of executives,
and I, you know, you call me Daren,
an ex, a development executive.
No one, an angel would
call me an executive.
The executives don't
know what they're doing.
Even in Hollywood when I was taking
meetings there, you really get the sense
that they're looking for everyone else
in the room to tell them what's good.
And, you know, maybe
that's unfair statement.
I'm sure there are some
great ones, but, yeah.
So, gosh, Garrett, I don't know How it
maybe goes back to Darren's question.
You don't always know if you're
getting the feedback of some
executive who has a lot of money and
influence but doesn't have good taste.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Maybe, and well maybe you already
answered the question, with your answer
when you said, that it's improvement.
So if me as a screenwriter, I can
identify, okay, this executive
or this development executive.
Is making, even if it's dictating
dialogue, Hey, we're improving the script.
Great man, let's keep going.
if it's just like, oh, let's have
them say this instead of that,
and you go, what are we doing?
What are we doing here?
That's where we probably derailed the
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
process,
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I was just listening to, a podcast
the other day with, Jason McAllen.
the guy who co-founded Crumble cookies
and I, think of their story as very
applicable to development because what
they were doing was AB testing every day.
they were focusing on their
chocolate chip cookie.
And every day they would have a batch that
was the winner from the previous day and
a batch with one thing different, dark
chocolate versus semi-sweet versus milk,
chocolate, And every day they would go
out and put it in front of the market.
So they'd go to gas stations and have
random people taste test two different
cookies and vote on 'em And they'd
put polls up On Twitter and say, do
you like semi-sweet or milk chocolate?
Better in your chocolate chip cookies.
And so every day they were
making progress toward.
What they ultimately landed on is
their hero cookie, which is always
available every week, even though
their, menu changes every week.
Not to get too into the weeds in their
story, but to me that's development.
you're saying we have an outcome
that we're aiming for, which is
a project that's ready for the
next phase, which is production.
So what are we gonna do
between where we are?
And, and that milestone.
A, can we identify where the gaps are?
And B, can we make progress every
single day until we feel with a,
a, a very high level of confidence?
Yes, this is ready for.
The market ready for production, ready
for whatever the next phase is, and
the spinning of the wheels or the
talking in circles or the navel gazing
that sometimes we hear about of like,
well, what if the character was not
how they are in the book, but they're
a completely different character.
So we need to ignore that, but
we can't because you're our boss.
And so that's where we get into This
spiral of development hell, I think
it's about making progress every day.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah,
and I think it goes back to
also going back to your hunger
analogy or the battery analogy.
if you start to feel like.
you talked scientifically.
our audience is liking
this, but a lot is feeling
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Mm-hmm.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: like if you
start to feel that hunger decreasing,
it's not like, I mean, that's gonna
ebb and flow at some level, right?
But if you really start at feeling
like it's diving, it might be, if
possible, time for a change of scenery.
If you feel your battery
dying, it might be.
worth going.
Maybe this is not the right
fit with the, the studio.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: I agree
a hundred percent and I can look back
on the projects I've done and identify
those moments where I got that feeling.
I either departed the project and
was grateful I did, or I stuck
with it kicked myself for the
next two years doing that project.
So, what a great, observation
to say, Hey, it's okay.
to move on.
I finally related to, you know, you
read the headlines of like, so and so
left this project because of creative
differences, and I was just thought.
I don't understand that you're
getting to make a movie.
Why would you leave the project?
And finally, after going through
this misery for a couple of projects,
I go, oh, that's what that means.
And, it's okay to leave a project,
especially as an independent filmmaker.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Yeah, I think so.
and part of my leaving the Jim and
Susie, Cameron project was this.
Right.
and I think, it's good
to know when to say no.
Right?
so yeah, I
This season of Truly Independent is
supported by the Help Them See Foundation.
Help Them See is a nonprofit dedicated
to supporting feature films that
inspire faith, hope, and connection.
By partnering with filmmakers
that help them see Foundation
brings meaningful stories to life
and shares them with audiences
worldwide, making a lasting cultural
impact through the power of cinema.
Learn more and discover how you can
be part of the movement by visiting.
Help them see foundation.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: yeah.
Joel, I get pitched projects.
Every day, every, couple times a week,
from just lovely people that submit
projects and some I think are great and
some maybe could even, the pitch should
go through a round of development.
one that came in.
Joel, I just wanna get your opinion just
to make sure we're creatively aligned.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Hi,
Garrett Batty, high concept Uplift.
Family loving holiday movie director
has similar film on Netflix.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: That was,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
We run with it.
That's the pitch.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I think it sounds great.
I mean, how do you argue with it?
I think say send him a check.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: No notes.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
Now that I know that's your reaction, I
know I'm gonna phrase my next angel pitch.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
forward that email over to Joel here
'cause he knows what to do with it.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: I think
the one thing I might add is just
if he could have added that, it
will be an award-winning film.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
it's, I've, I get the ones that say
primed for $50 million box office.
It was like, and you've done what
in your experience, like, and you
look 'em up and they don't even have
an IMDB and you're just like, wow.
I love the confidence, but it's not
a way to get a pitch moving forward.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
It's all right.
the email address ends in Netscape.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Hey,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
We're okay.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: yeah.
You know, the other interesting thing
about, angel to their credit, is they.
To their credit and also
to their waste of time.
they are one of the few studios
that looks at pretty much
any pitch that comes to them.
I mean, if they saw that, I would
hope that they would not reply.
But any legitimate pitch or script
that comes across the board.
it is one of the reasons why, I read
so many bad scripts because they are
willing to go, is there something here?
Because their whole, ethos is
looking for the forgotten, the
cast out, you know, all of that.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: would say
999, you know, I mean, like, there's so
few of, The cast outs that like go, oh,
there is something here that, you know,
could be developed into something great.
but, but you know, it's every,
every now and then, have you,
Garrett, have you ever had a pitch,
where you're like, yes, I love it.
I'm gonna run with it, or
I'm gonna work with you?
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I mean, I've certainly responded
to some pitches that I'd be more
interested in responding to.
I don't know if I'm answering
way you want me to answer.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: No, no, no.
I'm just curious.
I don't, I didn't have
a way, so that's good.
I mean, that means you're around enough
people that they have something of
value, that it's not just wasting your
time saying, my brother-in-law's gonna,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
Well, no, I mean, I can look back
I mean, even the last movie that
Daren and I did, the Faith of Angels
someone reached out, it was actually
a producer reached out said, here's
an idea that was pitched to us.
We can't do it.
it's a true story and something
kind of down your alley.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: That's awesome.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
we developed it from there.
But I mean there is so much value in
the, what you do far as developing,
you know, just taking it, the
basic story and saying, look, is
this a feature film or is this a
Thanksgiving dinnertime family story?
You know?
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Or
a high concept holiday family film?
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
a high concept
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: No.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
family uplift.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Joel, if
someone's listening to this and they go.
His life sounds amazing and
I want to do what he does.
what's the path to become a development
guy since you're not an executive?
Like what is, they have to go and
create viral videos or like what's,
is there a stereotypical path?
What does that path look like?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, we
haven't talked about this, but one of
the reasons why I think that I'm good
at development is because I actually
do, I'm a screenwriter at heart.
That's what I do.
And, I've.
Worked really hard at that part.
Right?
Then I also direct, so there's
an understanding of more than
just part of the process.
I direct, I act, you know, definitely
you don't have to follow my path.
There's more than more way to skin a cat.
but I would say I don't know how.
someone can be really good at
development if they don't know.
maybe you don't have to be a great
writer yourself, but you really
have to be able to identify what
makes a good screenplay, not just a
good movie, but a good screenplay.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Mm.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: I would
say study, screenwriting, learn
screenwriting, try screenwriting, even
if you're not gonna be a screenwriter.
Like learn screenwriting, learn
three x structure, you know,
like the back of your hand.
and, you know, do a lot of fun things
too, like watch a lot of movies
and that's gonna be part of it.
That's what I would say, I guess.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
I think that's brilliant.
I think that thing I would add
to that, and again, to allow
me to put words in your mouth,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Thank you.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
you have an incredible grasp
of an audience response.
you know, what, what does
an audience respond to?
Right?
Your viral videos are not
happening without that ability.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: true.
And the challenge is
I don't even know how,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
That's a gift, man.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: I learned that,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
That's a gift
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
how you learn that.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: That's
growing up with six brothers, isn't it?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: honestly,
maybe like our Garrett knows my family
and I grew up with six brothers,
two sisters, and in our family
I've done a lot of therapy to learn
that this is not actually healthy.
But our family, the way you
got love, of necessity, really.
if you have nine kids and my dad was just
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: I
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: like a dog to.
To provide for us.
How do you give enough
attention to each of those kids?
I don't know.
And so in our family, it became a.
unless you got attention or you know,
unless you did something worthy of
attention, you didn't get it basically.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: mean.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: you had to
be entertaining or funny or smart or
good at sports or something to, to win
the love and affection of your parents.
We didn't know this was happening,
but it was happening and so like.
Maybe that's, maybe that's what it is.
Also, my dad made us listen to marketing
tape, so we kinda learned how to market.
but like, I don't know how to,
how to teach people to tap into
what the, what the public wants.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well,
I was being a little bit facetious,
but, that is, it seems like a gift and
a talent and we're all better for it
because you do such a good job with it.
So,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: yeah,
it's fun to, fun to see your stuff.
Joel, you've just wrapped your,
an, feature film, where you're
the actor in it, right, the lead.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yes, independent
feature film, ultra low budget,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yes.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: very
talented screenwriter here in Utah.
Davey Morrison, who's probably a genius.
he won Jeopardy a couple of times.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Literally went to Jeopardy and won it.
Yes.
amazing.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: and
he used his Jeopardy winnings
to fund his ultra low budget
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: That's.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: No way.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
it was a 15 day shoot.
it was also, a major feat of producing.
It was not only a great script, but
he funded this film on so little
budget, it wasn't like a chamber
piece where it's like, you know,
five actors and, and one location.
It was a.
I don't know, 20 locations,
multiple actors, extras, So, one
of the best experiences of my life,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: So.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: good,
kind of hard, best kind of hard.
and it was so great to be back in
the acting seat and realize how much
actors do and have to do and feel
all that insecurity, that they feel
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: And I think
there's a lot of insecurity when,
when I direct, at least that I can't
say for you guys, but like, wow.
it was just.
a learning experience to be,
because I hadn't done a feature,
acted in a feature since college,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554:
been over 15 years, I think,
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: well,
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
It's awesome.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
see a couple of the posts
and, I'm excited to see it.
when it's ready.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah, it's
a dark comedy about a philosophy
adjunct college philosophy professor
going through a midlife crisis.
And it's should, should
be a good, good watch.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Sounds fun.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: I
blew it or not, you know, if I
blow it, it'll be entertaining
because, you know, how terrible an
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Watch,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: is.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
watching some guy just flounder.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
that's, I'm buying a ticket either way.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well,
as long as it's, not a high concept
uplift, family loving holiday movie I
don't wanna spoil the one I'm making.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Joel, thank you so much being here.
it is been a joy.
I'm taking what you've talked
about as far as just development
I'm working on a script right now.
and, I'm anxious and excited to be able
to take it further, show it to people,
crave that critique, that criticism,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
that that's gonna make it better.
not just rush into, you know, shoot and
hey, how are we gonna break this down
and shoot, and we'll fix it on the day?
no, no, no.
Let's make it good.
Take the time and develop it properly.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Well, and
you guys are well connected enough
that you can show it to people
who will be able to give you good,
constructive feedback, or they'll
tell you, Hey, it's ready, you know?
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554: Yeah.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: you guys
know the difference between like a
dealer's choice note where like, oh,
I would do it a little differently,
but it's good as is, or whatever.
And between a really substantial,
eh, this didn't work for me.
there's a hole here or a problem here.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
keep an eye on your inbox,
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: Okay.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Thank you so much.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: having me on
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Yeah, that's a great convo.
Where can people find you?
If they wanna connect with you, they
wanna learn more what you're up to.
Where's a good place online?
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: so I
also own a publishing company.
That's probably the best way to get
ahold of me is my email, Joel at
print, immortal as in live forever.
Print immortal.com.
Or you can follow my Instagram, which
is, at print immortal on Instagram.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554: Nice.
garrett-batty_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Wonderful.
Okay, well, we'll check it out.
It has been a joy.
Nice to, nice to chat with you.
Thanks, Joel.
daren-smith_1_08-25-2025_100554:
Thanks for coming on.
joel_1_08-25-2025_100554: thanks.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: Wow.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: Yeah.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
good info.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: Yeah.
That's fun.
I've always been intrigued by development.
I do a lot of development,
but not officially, right?
Like it's part of my job as
a producer when there isn't.
A studio that has hired and has
on staff a development executive,
like it just defaults to me.
And so I love development.
I wish I could do more of it, but it was
really cool to hear someone who's doing
it, as a job, as a career full-time.
Talk about the, not just the ups and
downs, but like, what's fun about it?
It's very cool.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: I
think there's so much value as an indie
filmmaker to say, look, these development
experts, these guys that, you know, an
an individual who's, that's their focus.
they're not trying to
creatively take over project.
They're only trying to
uplift and support it.
And if you say, Hey, we're on the same
team, what's best for the story, just
as much as your DP is gonna bring their
craft to it and your production designer,
somebody in development is gonna say, here
are the holes and let's, let's avert them.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
When to have someone who has a lot
of experience, a lot of reps, and the
bandwidth to sit down with your story
and go, okay, from my experience and from
my, Awareness as a development person,
like this is where I think we are,
and this is where I think it could be.
And here are the gaps.
And the best development execs can
be very clear about what's going
on and why it needs to change.
And they're not gonna tell
you exactly how to change it.
That's not their job.
You're the writer.
So they're gonna say, look, this.
Scene isn't working because it
doesn't change anything in the story.
It's just filler.
This character is betraying who
they are because you set 'em up
this way in the first act, but in
the third act, the way they win is
this way, and we didn't earn that.
And it's those kind of notes
to say, look, here's the issue.
I could suggest a couple of ways to
address it, But it's almost like you
wouldn't want to write and publish a book.
Without an editor going through
it, and you have development or
structural editors whose job is, does
this work as a whole entire piece.
They're not going in and doing
a line edit, which is, is
the comma in the right place?
Those kind of nitpicky things.
It's more of a structural,
like overall, is it working?
And if it's not, why wouldn't you want
the help to make it really, really
work before it goes to the next phase?
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: Yeah.
Joel's a guy to do that.
He has such an incredible proven
history of taking things and making
them better, in a collaborative way.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: Yeah.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
Daren, how's your any, any
updates on your projects?
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
None that I can report yet.
I think in the next two
weeks we're probably having a
meeting and so we're waiting.
this is why, you know, you don't talk
about projects until like they are
greenlit and money's in the bank because.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: Yeah.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: I've had
too many experiences, in the past when
I was co-running a production company
would be like, oh, this investor is
interested in funding our movie, because
they said, oh, it sounds interesting.
we took that and to us it
meant being very naive.
Our movie's gonna get funded tomorrow.
It's like, no, that never happened.
But we'd start talking
about it like we did.
Uh, like it was, and we became
the kind of hype man that you're
always warning people about being.
Luckily it was kind of before
social media was a huge thing, so
we weren't posting about it online.
We were just telling our friends.
But yeah, I think, I'm excited about it.
it sounds like it's moving
forward, but we're just kind
of waiting until they have.
The bandwidth.
They have the hunger, but they
don't have the battery charge to use
Joel's analogy their battery's being
drained by another project right now.
So they're waiting until they can
do a recharge and come over here
and plug battery into our project
and give it the energy it needs.
So excited to talk about it when
I can, and it will probably be a
few more episodes until that point,
but it'll be fun because I'll be
actively helping develop this project.
With a writer, director and someone
who is also really good at development,
we could bring him on, we could
talk a lot about how do you develop
a short or a proof of concept.
It'll be really fun.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: Okay.
Well, I look forward to it.
I won't, uh, I won't ask you
every time I see you then.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
can, I'll just give,
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
that I'm excited for it.
When, when you're able to share,
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: yeah.
And how about you?
Are we updates any, wow,
any updates on the script?
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
where the dog heals is, moving
right along at a good pace.
I've finished the first draft and
sent off the first 30 pages to.
The person on whom the story is based.
we had a good conversation this weekend
to get their feedback and their notes.
They're very excited and encouraged
by the direction the story's going.
I'll send them incremental
bits of the script
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: Nice.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
I get it polished, but, it's,
it's moving right along.
And, we've had another donation come in
through the Help Them see Foundation.
Which is great.
People are wanting to support and
see faith-based movies, and the
best way to do that is through
the Help them see Foundation,
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
That's awesome.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
far as donating.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
Sounds like we need to get Kirby
on too and have you guys talk about
this at a little bit more in depth.
it's a cool model for faith-based films.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: yeah.
Well, we would certainly
be willing to do that.
We've got a couple of meetings
scheduled this week, of
some, high value individuals.
And hopefully we'll have
something to report,
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: Awesome.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
but we're moving
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804: Yeah.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
goal is by the end of the month
to be fully done with the script
and ready for the next phase.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
Very exciting.
Well, cool updates.
keep moving forward,
make progress every day.
That's my takeaway from today.
It's just whatever you're
working on, just keep going.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804: Great.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
Okay, thanks.
garrett-batty_2_08-25-2025_110804:
Thanks man.
daren-smith_2_08-25-2025_110804:
See you next week.
This season of Truly Independent is
supported by the Help Them See Foundation.
Help Them See is a nonprofit dedicated
to supporting feature films that
inspire faith, hope, and connection.
By partnering with filmmakers
that help them see Foundation
brings meaningful stories to life
and shares them with audiences
worldwide, making a lasting cultural
impact through the power of cinema.
Learn more and discover how you can
be part of the movement by visiting.
Help them see foundation.
Thanks for joining us.
If you are enjoying truly independent.
Please share and subscribe so you
don't miss the rest of the journey.
Today's episode was edited by
Michael Bradford and produced
by Three Coin Productions.
