S3 EP04 | Spec vs. Production Scripts: Which Should You Write?
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Hey, I'm doing good, Daren.
How are you doing?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I'm good, man.
Although.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Oops.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: I
will say it's festival season and I've
got a little bit of FOMO going on.
Like I've been watching all the news
from, uh, Venice and then Telluride just
started and there's a bunch coming up in
September and October and I'm just like,
go, I'm missing out on all the things.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
wanna be there.
That's just in your nature
to be there at the festivals.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I do want to be there, but I like,
for me, festivals are leverage,
like that's where stuff happens.
That's where.
an hour of your time, you could spend
with 50 people or with one person
and in person is always better.
so I don't know.
what happened though is I ended up
buying tickets to three different
festivals and now I'm going to three
festivals over 10 days in October.
So
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: right?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: I
am, I'm gonna go to the Newport Beach
Festival, for a few days then follow that
right up with the a FI fest for two or
three days, then I'm heading to Austin.
On the 24th through the 29th and I've
never been to the Austin Film Festival.
I've wanted to go for easily 10 years.
So this one I'm very excited for.
plus a FI fest seems to like be a
big one in the industry, so it just
feels like, okay, I'm gonna go and
I'm gonna be present and I've got
enough of an email list and a LinkedIn
following that I'm, I'm sure I can
connect with dozens of people at each
festival and get some stuff moving.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
That's exciting, man.
those seem like three really good
ones to choose, so I'll, I'll be
excited to hear how those go for you.
We need to, we need to do a,
uh, we need to get the truly
independent, tour bus going
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
There you go,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
just do some interviews at
some of these festivals.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: dude.
Come out to Austin and we
can just record a bunch.
'cause you've got a bunch of
writers out there for the festival.
So we're, we're talking about
writing and development.
Maybe that's the one to go to.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: I
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: We.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I like it.
Well, good.
Well, that's exciting
and That's a good segue.
Speaking of writing and development,
this, this week's episode, we're gonna
be talking about scripts and, , just
the difference between a spec script or
a production script and when to write
what and how to let whatever you're
writing inform what you are writing.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
is that the convoluted there?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
that's, that's perfectly convoluted.
I love it.
So, I think that was, sufficiently clear.
Why don't we talk first
about defining these two?
Because, sometimes if you haven't
done this before, if you're listening
to this and like you're trying to
get into the industry, you're trying
to learn all the lingo, you may
hear things like spec scripts or
production scripts and go, wait, what?
so, you know, we typically define a spec
script as something that you're writing.
To be sold.
So you're going to give it or sell it
to a production company, a director,
a producer, a group, a company and
say, here's my script that I wrote.
Please go make this and I'm gonna
go write my next spec script.
ideally you're getting paid for that.
Ideally it's, , close to or above
the Writer's Guild minimums,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
You mean
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: but
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: sells?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: yeah.
but you're right on specs.
You're not being paid upfront to write it.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I think that's an important,
point to clarify is that it
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
nobody's paying you,
nobody's initiating that.
You're either writing.
I, uh, when I lived in LA there
were people that would write spec
scripts for episodic television.
these, not in the writer's room,
they're not being paid, but they
say, oh, I've got this funny.
Concept for a Seinfeld episode,
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Mm-hmm.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
a spec script
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: then.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: And
those become kind of a calling card where
you're saying, look, I know I wasn't paid
to write this 'cause I wasn't hired to
work in the writer's room or hired to
write this for a production company, but
here's what I'm capable of as a writer.
So spec is short for speculation.
You're writing it on.
Speculation and in the hopes
that it will forward your career.
It will get read by the right people.
It'll land on someone's desk who can
go, Ooh, I wanna rep this person, or
I want to hire this person, or I want
to produce or direct this script.
So that's a spec script.
So what's, how's that different
from a production script, Garrett?
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: I think
a production script is you are writing to
make it like this is, uh, you're either
working for the production company or
it's you as the independent, producer.
The truly independent minded
producer says, look, I'm going to
write now, or I'm gonna hire a,
writer to write this production
script that we are going to make.
And the, it's just the parameters
will be a little bit different and the
goals will be a little bit different.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Yeah, let's dive into some of
those parameters and goals though.
'cause I think that's an interesting
differentiator between the
two, like with a spec script.
Um, you know, the ones that I've
written, we kind of didn't have
any consideration for budget.
Or scope or any of that.
It was just like, what's a movie
that we would like to make?
What's, what's fun on the page that
makes us look like we're good writers?
Uh, these were scripts that I was
writing with my buddy Allen now, and
we did a handful of spec scripts and
we did a handful of production scripts
through our, you know, nine years of
working together and writing together.
Like we said earlier, spec script's
really like a calling card.
You're using it to say, this is what
I'm capable of doing when, when I
have no limitations around budget
or scope or anything like that.
So you can really showcase your voice.
You can showcase your style, you can
showcase your chops and really the,
like what I was saying earlier, the
goal is to, very similar to if you
wrote a novel on spec, the goal is to.
Attach somebody to the
project, to the script.
So you're going to get representation
or a producer or a director or an actor
or a production company or a studio
that's like, we want this thing that
you made because it's really good.
So the stakes and the accountability
and all that is kind of lower because
you don't have to be accountable for, we
can't shoot this on a $2 million budget.
It's way too big.
It's like, well, I didn't write
it for a $2 million budget.
I just wrote a good script.
So on the spec script side, it's, it's
really kind of like no holds Barr.
You just go write the
thing you want to write.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: right?
You're taking those, uh, kind
of those handcuffs off and just
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
am going to write what's in my brain.
I, I think if it's an existing
ip, you know, you might say, Hey,
I'm writing a spec script for.
This show that everybody knows, and
I wanna showcase my witty dialogue
or my ability to, you know, put these
characters that everybody loves in
unique circumstances or situations.
Uh, that would be interesting.
And so, yeah, when I've seen spec
scripts, you know, somebody's portfolio
that has different spec scripts in
it, you go, okay, I'm not looking for,
um, they're not writing to showcase,
I guess, the worlds that they can
create in some instances, Daren and I.
I guess they both, you could have
different specs for different reasons,
you're saying, look, I wanna just
write to say here's the creative ideas
that I'm doing with an existing ip.
Um, and those are, those are fun to read.
I mean, it's almost a fan fiction
type thing, but a spec script.
And so you're obviously not
taking a lot of time writing
this, me this creative, um.
World building type,
extras, but you're just
writing, um, I guess what people
are already familiar with.
Um, but sharing your own take on that.
So that's, I guess that's
one I'm under spec script.
And, and then the other one is that
you're describing, or that, that
people do is, Hey, I just want to,
now there is no responsibility toward
budget or of how we're gonna do this.
I just wanna write and showcase, um.
You know, whatever creative
freedoms I wanna have.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
Years ago, like writer's, Twitter
was a big thing, you know, more so
like five to 10 years ago than now.
I'm, I'm not even on X anymore 'cause I
don't like the platform anymore, but like.
I built a pretty cool, you know, network
of screenwriters and directors and
producers and executives on Twitter.
I've just moved, found 'em all on LinkedIn
and now we're hanging out over there.
But there were, I mean, once a
year, twice a year, maybe there was.
There was a speck that
would go around town, right?
Someone would write this crazy idea,
you know, clowns in space or a, a
noir with robots, detectives, and
you're just like, what is this?
And like, they would just make it freely
available, which was really smart because.
If they're not currently
trying to like get it made,
they're trying to get it sold.
The more people that they can put
it in front of the, the higher their
chances that one of those people want
to actually have a conversation around,
you know, let's talk about this thing.
Um, and maybe it's not to make
this thing, but let's hire you for
this writing assignment, or let's.
See what else you got in your
drawers, uh, at your desk to see
what, what else might be producible.
And I just remember reading
those and going, this is insane.
There's no way this
would ever be produced.
There's no way that like, but it's
such a good writing sample that it
makes you want to work with that
writer because it resonates so much.
That to me is like the biggest thing.
If you can get a script, a spec script
that resonates with the intended audience,
that's the thing that will open, that
can, I shouldn't say will, but can
open doors for you in the industry.
And then it becomes a function of,
well, can you get it to more and
more and more people every day?
Same reason, like same way
you write a book and you want
a lot of people to read it.
It's like, okay, write the spec script
and get a lot of people to read it.
And so it's a, it's a great way to
kind of break into the industry.
But it's also kind of abdicating the
responsibility of moving the project
forward to everybody else except you,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Right,
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
don't love.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: right.
If it's, uh, yeah.
If the question is how
do I get my script sold?
Write a spec script.
If it's hard to get my script
made or to product a script,
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
that's kind of what it is.
The, the spec is, uh, potentially a
very, very long shot, uh, financially.
But you know, if, if, if and
when it does sell it, it's a,
it's a win for your career.
It's significant.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: I will
say we should qualify a little bit around.
If you're solely want to be a
writer, it might be a little bit.
That you're leaning towards spec
scripts early on in the process,
because if you're gonna be a
writer, how do you get your reps in?
You just write every day and you write
script after script, after script.
And yes, you do.
You do the work of putting it out there
and getting it read and getting it seen,
and getting it onto people's desks.
But the work that you're doing
every day is writing and getting
better and honing your craft.
But if you're a director, if you're a
writer, director, if you're a writer,
producer, a writer, actor, then.
It behooves you to get that project
moving forward so that it can get
made, because that's where it really,
um, can become a calling card for
you as a director, as an actor.
And so you really probably are shifting
more towards production scripts, even
if it's your first one, because it
not only has to be a calling card,
but it has to be seen, it has to
be made in order for it to work.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I think I realized that very, very
early on when I would write, I
would spend a lot of time writing.
These ideas, you know, Hey, here's
this amazing, obviously in my mind,
an amazing idea and that I fall
in love with and I get so excited.
And then I realize I've written
a film that is unmakeable
for a first time filmmaker.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Hmm.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
And you just go, oh, I don't, I
don't want to write this as a spec.
I don't wanna sell my script.
At this point that that'd be optimistic.
Obviously it's not gonna sell.
Uh, so my mindset had to shift and say
if I want to make films, I need to write
a production script, uh, something that
is within budget, or have the resources
or schedule that I have access to.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah, so
the production script is almost like a.
Weirdly formatted business plan where
you've got bolded scene headings and
you know, all this different weird
formatting, but it, it has to hold up
not only creatively, but it has to hold
up financially and it has to hold up
logistically and strategically, like you
have to be able to make this so it has
to be feasible and marketable and aligned
with the types of movies you want to be.
Known for and associated with.
So you know, you wanting to go in and
break into the faith-based film market.
If you came out the first
gate with a low budget horror.
Yeah, that's not gonna get
you any closer to faith-based,
writer, director, producer.
It might actually take you away
from that goal if it's, you know, on
the opposite end of the spectrum of
the types of films you wanna make.
So it really has to be
strategic from the get go.
You're saying, I'm gonna use this
production script as a vehicle
to get me these things that I
ultimately want in my career.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Well,
I think you're also anticipating is gonna
be the, like, the needs of cast and crew
and investors in your production script.
And, uh, it's a fun ex, I mean.
For me, it, once you define the box, once
you define the parameters of the world
that you're have to be in, then that
is a fun exercise to say, what story or
what can I do creatively within this box?
And my first theatrical film, I
realized I had very little money,
very little access to resources.
Um, and so the, the film I wrote
was a, about two missionaries
that are kidnapped and so.
It's essentially, uh, uh, what is
it called, a chamber piece where
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Hmm.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
you've got a very, very small cast in
a one or two tight spaces, you can make
a film interesting within that world.
But that unlocking that and
realizing, Hey, these are the limits.
These are my parameters.
Therefore, now I'm going to
be able to explore just that
world and maximize that world.
And it, uh, so it was, was a neat exercise
to write that as a production script.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah,
and it really does tend to, you can see
a lot of common things that happen when
you go from a spec to a production script.
It's like the whole scope just kind
of shrinks down, like your locations.
We've got two instead of 20 and cast,
we've got two instead of 20, and we've
got, you know, budget, we've got 200
instead of 20 million or whatever.
So like the scope changes a ton.
But you can still tell a story in that
genre for that audience that can resonate.
And so that's the thing to focus
on as you're making that shift.
And I think there is
kind of a mindset shift.
You're going from, I'm
an artist, I'm a writer.
I'm, I want to be known for my
writing and what I can do on the page.
Well then yak.
Do the spec script and blow it open.
But you're, you almost have to shift to
being like an architect as a writer on the
production script where you're saying, I
know what the final building looks like,
so I'm gonna design the blueprint now
that can ultimately become that thing.
So you're saying I'm gonna
write the script that can
become the movie because I know.
Or I know that within a couple hundred
thousand or a one or $2 million budget,
this is possible and it's not gonna
require the backing of a studio and the
budget of a studio and the, the A-list
actors in order to make this work.
And I should say there, if you don't know.
Talk to a producer, like
that's what producers are for.
They can help you with budget, they can
help you with scope, they can help you
with, how does this building get made?
How does this movie get
made from this script?
So even if you've written your first
draft and it's a spec script, but you
actually are going, oh, you know what?
I think I wanna make this
one or get this one made.
Talk to a producer in that genre and
say, look, I wrote a script on spec.
I wanna do something that can be
made for maybe a million dollars.
Can you help me?
Figure this out.
And producers love solving problems.
So when you give 'em a problem
like that, they're like, who?
Yeah, that's what I like to do.
And send me the script.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Daren,
uh, I don't know if this is a pet peeve
of mine or if it's a common practice or
may, you know, maybe I just need to get
over it, I read scripts where there is it,
it's probably more of a spec script 'cause
it's being sent to me, there's camera
direction and kind of acknowledgement of.
Production, like how
we're going to do this.
And, uh, for me, that's, that's always
kind of a, it pulls me outta the story.
It pulls me outta the moment
and I always think, why is the
writer dictating to the director?
What, how, how, how this
scene is gonna play.
Um, am I oversensitive on that or
what's, what's your take on that?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: I
think potentially, I think whatever,
whatever frame that you're coming
at it with is, is a made up one.
There's no right or wrong way, like.
Uh, you see this all the time with
screenplays and, and so many gurus online
will talk about if your screenplay isn't
formatted properly, there's no chance.
And then you go, well, here's a
hundred scripts that were formatted
improperly that got made by studios.
So like, it just doesn't hold up.
And so, you know, you look at, uh,
James Cameron's scripts and there's
camera direction all over the place, but
he's also the writer director, so he's
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
writing as a producer, uh,
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: right.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: That's
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: He's
writing it in there to say, I know what
this shot is and I want to remember it.
So here's what I would say to kind
of flirt the line and not make
you feel bad about your stance.
It's like if, if it's a pure
script, pure spec script.
You're, you're a writer and you've
written a spec and you want it to be
produced, directed by other people,
leave the camera direction out
because that's outside of your scope.
But if you've written it as a
production script, it's totally fine
to have camera movement in there.
We see and the camera dollies and push
in on an extreme closeup on, because
you're showing us that you know what
the film is gonna look and feel like.
And I, I enjoy reading those
because then it's like, Ooh,
that's an interesting choice.
Why did they go to Extreme closeup there?
Now if it dominates the page, if it's
every other line is camera movement.
Yeah.
It's too much.
Like you can do it once
a scene, once a page.
I don't know what the right number is, but
it shouldn't be what the script is for.
That's for your shot list.
When you're the director and you've gotten
the script past the point where it is
now into production, now you can start
shot listing the movie and go, okay,
this shot is this and this shot is this.
Then that's fine.
So do it sparingly in a production script.
I wouldn't use it at all in a spec script.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Here's
where, here's where it pulls me out.
And I think this is, I, I agree with you.
I think that's a wise,
uh, uh, rebuttal on that.
Um, whereas if, if this is, again,
inherent to the story, if this has
to be a unique aspect of the, of the
story, then yeah, put it in there,
whether it's production or spec.
Put it in there.
But, but, but like you say, use it
sparingly and also be very selective in
your words, because the minute you say,
we see the drone come down, you think,
no, we don't, we don't ever see the drone.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah, no.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
it just a high angle shot
that you're trying to say
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
or what, you know, we,
we see the camera move.
No, the camera's not a part of this movie.
so, uh, I think that's when it's, when
it's done poorly, it pulls me out.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Instead,
you could just say, looking down on
the house from above, that's not a,
that's not a camera direction, that's
just putting the reader where you are
when you're seeing the story play out.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yes.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
So I've got, I've got one for
you to give me a rebuttal on.
Um.
I have in the last probably five
years that I've been really like
producing movies, uh, and TV at
a, I would say a decently high
level for independent filmmaker.
I have been telling writers to not
write spec scripts, um, with the caveat
of if you're starting out, yeah, you
should write five scripts like, and.
Whether or not they get made
whatever, like you need to get your
reps in and you need to make five of
them soup to nuts, you know, write
500 pages worth of good script.
And at that point you're probably
ready to like go and write
stuff for people for a living.
Um, so with that caveat, I've been telling
screenwriters that are established, stop
writing specs and instead write treatments
and have them be 10 to 15 pages.
Uh, narrative, you know,
like write like a novel.
Um, you can throw in a little bit of
dialogue here and there, but ultimately.
I just want the story.
I wanna know, can you tell a compelling
story that I haven't seen before with
compelling characters and resonance
emotionally, or emotional resonance, I
should say, that's grammatically correct.
Um, Grammarly would tell me that,
like flip those words around.
Anyway, so the reason for that is twofold.
One, producers are short on time
and I would much rather be given a
stack of five treatments to read.
'cause I can do that in an hour.
Then five scripts to read over the
weekend, which I probably will get
to one, because I have a life and
I have three boys and we're active.
Like we went mountain biking
yesterday for Labor Day.
I didn't read scripts yesterday, you
know, but if you send me a treatment,
I can read it in 15 minutes and
it's part of my workday, you know?
So, A, it's easier to read B um, it's
actually an easier format to show that
you know how to tell a good story.
I think as soon as you put
on the layer of screenplay.
All of a sudden story can get lost
in formatting, in structure, in page
count, in spacing, in whatever, and
you go, oh, well I, I need to make
sure this word doesn't wrap around to
the next page, so I'm gonna change it.
It's like, well, does
that serve the story?
So, um, I've been promoting this
for like five years of like, just
put treatments out in the world.
You could write 10 of those a
year compared to one or two good
screenplays a year, and your
chances of getting one of those.
Moving forward with an investor
who doesn't know how to read
screenplays or a director or a
producer or collaborators of any kind.
I think it, your chances go way up
with treatments compared to spec to
spec scripts, and then you are being
hired to write the production script
instead of trying to sell a spec.
So there's my, um, spicy hot take.
What do you think about that one?
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I think you're right on.
I think your point about producers,
uh, not having a lot of time,
I think that that's universal.
And I, I would say writers don't
have a lot of time either and Yes.
So crank out your treatments,
get the ideas out there.
Um, I, I learned that lesson.
Uh, again, the hard way of, Hey,
I've been writing, you write several
scripts and you spend so much time.
Developing these scripts and getting 'em
all perfect and you get 120 pages or 90
pages, whatever it is, you realize, you
know what, I could have just written the
15 page treatment or 10 page treatment
and, um, shown that to the investor a
lot easier than the, than the script.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
um, so yeah, I agree with you.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yay.
That's awesome.
Um, the other thing I would say too is
if you wanna be a pure writer, like write
short stories, like turn those treatments
into novellas or short stories, and those
can be, you know, 10, 12, 15,000 words.
And it's kind of like just an expanded
treatment that's got more structure to it.
Like chapters and sections and parts
and beginning, middle end and stuff.
But like I've, we've seen a
lot of short stories get made.
Like, um, shoot, why I'm, uh, I'm
blanking on the one that she was in.
Uh, Ted Arrival.
That's the movie that was
based on the short story.
Um, and so there's,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
out where you were.
I'm trying to figure out
your logic line there.
She
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
that was all over the place.
Amy Adams was the, she was in, I couldn't
think of her name, so I kept going.
Amy Adams was the, she was in, and Ted is
the, the guy who wrote the short story,
, Ted Chang, C-H-I-A-N-G, Ted Chang.
Um, it was a short story
called Story of Your Life.
And it was adapted into the film by, um,
the French director that I also can't.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Vinu, what's
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Okay, so there we go.
I should not name drop
ever because I'm bad at it.
So.
Um, you know, you can turn
short stories into movies.
I heard early, early on in my kind
of film career that it's easier to
turn short stories into movies and
books into TV shows just because
there's so much depth in a story.
And so I'm curious to see.
I think the way it'll play out most
prominently over the next few years is the
Harry Potter series, because you've got.
The biggest series of
all time kind of thing.
And first they turned it into movies
and a lot of people were upset that
like, that's not what happened in
the books and what happened to this
character, or this whole storylines.
Like, we didn't have time for it.
We only had two and a half
hours for a 700 page book.
It's like, oh no.
But then you look at Game of Thrones
and they do an entire series for
one book and you're like, oh yeah,
that plays out really nicely.
So Amazon is, Amazon Warners is
doing the um, Harry Potter series.
My guess is they're gonna do basically
one book per season and it's probably
gonna be really good 'cause they're
putting a lot of money into it.
But all the fans are gonna be like,
oh, finally, like my favorite character
or my favorite storyline that was
left out of the movies are gonna,
they have time to do all that stuff.
So curious to see how that played out.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Uh,
somebody just reached out this book.
They, they heard this project that I'm
making on the Winston story, the, the
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
story, and, uh.
Suggested that it be a series rather than
he's like, ah, we've got a whole book.
I don't think that it's
ready for that, but, um,
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I, I, I, I, I agree that,
uh, those books would great.
Would benefit from a series, put a
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: in it.
Um, okay, so, so key differences then
we've got spec is imagination first
and production is Logistics first.
Right spec is showcase your voice.
Production is ex execute your vision.
Uh, spec would be writing for readers and
production is writing for cast and crew.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Hmm.
I like that one.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Right?
And then finally, spec is
potentially lottery ticket is kind
of that guaranteed heavy lifting.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Yeah, I would also add one more
to that, which is how, where's
the leverage in both of these.
So with the spec, your leverage really
lies in the originality, the craft, the
story that you're able to to tell because
you don't have any constraints there.
It's really meant to stand out on a desk,
and that's where the leverage will happen.
But with the production script, the
leverage comes from, like how it
integrates all of those, um, the
blueprint aspects, but also like.
Your leverage is getting talent
attached, getting tax incentives,
getting distribution potential
because like it's moving forward.
It's a thing that's gonna be made
and that momentum can help enroll
people, like bring people on.
I've talked about almost on every set
that I've been on, I've, I do a little
speech at the beginning where I'm grateful
that everybody showed up on day one.
And it's always like a magical
thing to me that like people
decided to show up at 6:00 AM.
In in the mountains of Utah, like they
could be doing anything in their life.
And they came here and I always
talk about how the screenplay
is an invitation to collaborate.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Mm.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
every one of those crew members
that showed up and cast members
that showed up 6:00 AM on a Monday.
Said yes to the invitation.
And that's such a cool thing.
And now we get to have a party for the
next three or four weeks where we get
to have fun, we get to play, we get
to collaborate, we get to make stuff.
And so it, the script in
that, um, in a production.
Since the leverage isn't just the
story, it's the strategy behind it.
It's like, who can we get for this script?
Where can we shoot this?
Who's gonna be, who's gonna
align with this and resonate
with us and help it get made?
So I think there's a lot of leverage on
both sides, and it really is a matter of,
for you as the person writing the script,
where do you want to exert that leverage?
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: So.
It sounds like yes, both approaches
are gonna be valuable, right?
Um, you're writing your, your spec
that it kind of hones your craft shows
what you're capable of, you write the
production, which is that invitation
to collaborate, I guess they're both.
Um, it's invitation to be resourceful,
collaborate, and, and, uh, kind
of more market minded is just, it.
It helps as a writer to know
the difference, to know which
hat you're wearing, right?
And then, um, either, either one is gonna.
I guess make you a stronger
writer, so, so keep writing.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
Um, I will put one final plug though,
into production script because
if you look at, what was it, two
years ago, we had Barb Inheimer.
We had the two biggest movies of the
summer, Barbie and Oppenheimer, written
by two filmmakers that got their start
with little scrappy indie movies.
So Christopher Nolan's first
feature following was made
for like thousands of dollars.
Like it wasn't a huge budget.
It wasn't a spec he was hoping to sell.
It was one that he wanted to produce
because he wanted to be a writer director.
And so he just reverse engineered the
outcome and said, oh, I'm gonna make it
as easy as possible to make this thing.
Let's do black and white natural light
nonlinear structures so they could
shoot over the weekends and hide the
continuity issues and all that stuff.
And it gave him leverage, not because.
The story was the best ever, or because
it got read by the right people,
but because he made it and it was a
singular output by a, by a director.
And look where Nolan ended up.
You know, he's still making the
biggest movies and he just, this
summer, the big thing that he did was,
you know, the Odyssey is coming out
next year and imax, and they put the
tickets on sale a year in advance.
And no one's really
even seen a trailer yet.
They just saw that five people
that they like are in it.
And Christopher Nolan wrote and
direct wrote and directed it.
Like that's leverage.
Um, starting from a production script.
Uh, the other option or the other
option, the other, um, person there in
that Barb Heimer combo is Greta Gerwig.
And she started more as an actor
and was like collaborating with
a lot of people on other movies.
And by, so by the point that she did
Lady Bird, which was I think 2017, she'd
already been like pretty well known.
She was already like an
actress that people liked.
But this was her first script
that she wrote with the full
intent of directing it herself.
And so, again, didn't shop
it around to sell it, um, she
just like went and did it.
So that's what then positioned her later.
She got the leverage to do movies
like Little Women and Barbie
and whatever she's doing next,
which I'm sure is gonna be huge.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Of Narnia.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
it's the Netflix series
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
a little story.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
that Netflix has agreed to put
them in theaters because of her.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, so she's got the leverage.
I mean, we saw it play out with Barbie.
Her and, uh, Margot Robbie exerted a
lot of leverage around that story, but
now she's exerting it with Netflix,
the biggest streamer with 300 million
subscribers to say, no, if you want me and
my story and my talent, I'm going to use
the leverage that I have to say this is
what I want, and this is what this script
is, and this is what is gonna happen.
Like, but they both started with.
Indie production scripts that
they got made and then it,
that turned into leverage.
And more leverage and more
leverage and more leverage.
So that's my final thought on
the spec versus production.
I, I personally think you're, you're
gonna have more leverage if you
go the production script route.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Definitely leverages what you want then.
Yes, I would agree.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Daren hearing you talk
about this has me motivated.
I'm on, I'm, I'm, uh, dealing
with third act issues right now
in, uh, where the dog heals.
And so I gotta figure those out.
Uh, I've been up, uh, I've got of weeks
of late nights behind me, and I think
I one more week of late nights, uh, to
figure out this third act thing, but.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Nice.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
excited.
It is definitely a production script.
We're gonna make this movie and,
uh, we've got some people that
are ready to make it with us.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Awesome.
Well, and, and you know, I don't
know if I've mentioned before,
but really the subtext of this
podcast is me being able to just.
Help you every single week and
go like, let's get the next one.
Let's, let's help you get through it.
So let's, what should we talk about today?
There?
You're just, the listeners
are, are popping into our
coaching sessions is what it's,
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Well.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: then
every once in a while we do therapy
sessions because we're like, this is hard.
Why is it so hard?
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Well, hey, I'm excited for you.
Uh, uh, we're recording this I think
a week before your producer retreat
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
congratulations on that.
I'm looking forward to
doing our, our event there.
Um, what is that, that
special screening and a q and.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Yeah, it's gonna be good.
That came together in such a fun way.
Maybe we take a minute
or two on this, but like.
The speaking of leverage, let's use that
as our, as our pivot point of like when
you build an audience of people, which
we've been doing over the last year, you
know, conservatively over this podcast and
like your email list and my email list.
And I started really focusing on
LinkedIn last year and you know, added
like 7,500 people to LinkedIn and a
couple thousand to the email list.
And it's like people will just
start telling you what they
want from you and your business.
And so there was this demand.
From the audience to say, uh, we
want in person, we want you to work
with us one-on-one or in a group
setting beyond just like a, a monthly
live call, which is an hour long.
And so I put out a feeler and
you know, a hundred people rose
their, raised their hand and said,
yeah, I'd be interested in that.
And then I said, okay, we'll
put down a deposit, and then a
dozen people put down a deposit.
I was like, well, I could
sell 12 tickets to this thing.
And then I did.
And it was like, okay, well that,
that just came, that emerged from the
fact that I had an audience that I was
building, uh, actively all the time.
And so I would just say.
Continuing on with our ideas of leverage
and where are you headed with your career.
Like along the way, be sharing the
process of writing these scripts
and telling people about 'em, and
building an audience of support.
You know, have an email list and
release your next, your next scene,
or your next chapter of your.
Short story, you know, over
your email list and you never
know what's gonna happen.
You might be hosting a writer's
retreat at Sundance in two years.
Who knows?
So it was very cool
how that came together.
It's probably bad timing on my part.
I should be focusing on fundraising,
but you know, I was like, I
love Sundance in September.
Who doesn't?
Let's do that.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Good.
Well, I'm excited for you and I'm looking
forward to, to hearing how that goes.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah,
we'll give an update in two weeks.
It'll be fun.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Okay.
That sounds great.
Does this conclude our episode?
Are we, are we, did we wrap this up?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
I think so.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Should
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: think so.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
we get back to writing?
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yeah.
Get back to writing.
I'm gonna get back to fundraising and, uh.
You know, keep moving projects forward.
One of these days I'll be able to
say that our little, uh, uh, proof
of concept short is moving forward.
I feel like it is, but we're still
waiting on, on moving forward.
So we'll have some fun talk about that
and like going back to our conversation on
proof of concepts and why to make those,
and we can give some behind the scenes as
far as like how that's coming together.
So excited for that too.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Fantastic I for that.
Uh, if you're listening to the episode
and have writing questions or concerns or,
or, uh, ideas, send those in or comment
on, uh, on what we've talked about today.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526: Awesome.
Thanks for listening and be sure
to share it with other people.
It's growing slowly and
steadily and I love it.
garrett-batty_1_09-02-2025_101526: Yep.
daren-smith_1_09-02-2025_101526:
Thanks for sharing episodes.
See you.
