Truly Independent

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Series
are going to Sundance now as indies.

So indie film and indie series
is, they're indistinguishable now.

And you can sell a series to a
Netflix or an Amazon after you

take it to Sundance or Film Fest or
wherever, or just put it on YouTube.

This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by

documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.

Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you

on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the

process and answer your questions.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
\Hello, hello.

Welcome.

Darren, how are you?

Welcome to another episode
of Truly Independent.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I'm good, man.

And our, our show got a little
more handsome today, it looks like.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Oh, well, we haven't.

Is this before we've
introduced the guest or after?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Before.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: oh, okay.

No, I'm very excited about
about the the episode this week.

We're recording this a little
bit later than we typically do.

We're at two o'clock instead
of our regular morning session.

But that's because I've invited a, a dear
friend of mine to join us, Luke Johnson.

How are you, Luke?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: So good.

Hey guys.

First time, long time.

Thanks so much for having me.

I've been workshopping that for a couple
of days now, so I hope that we're, I

hope that actually crushes with your

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
the first time, long time bit.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I love it.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: It's like
something people say on the radio.

If you go back and listen to the

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No Jim Rome.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
It's an original joke.

And I appreciate the time you put
into preparing that for us today.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Thanks buddy.

Appreciate that.

Oh

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Luke,
speaking of first time, long time, we've

been, we've worked on several projects
in different capacities for a long time.

I don't know how that segues from first
time, long time, but just go with it.

All right, just go with it.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: God.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: And I
chatted with you about coming onto

the show to talk about, because this
season Darren and I are focusing

a hundred percent on development
and hopefully we'll get into pre

production, but mostly it's development.

For independent filmmakers and project
creators and entrepreneurs who want to

figure out how to take an idea from very
concepts to starting to kind of initiating

and funding and all of that stuff.

And you I'm not, I'm not exaggerating
when I say you are, I think one

of the best at like developing
concepts that I've ever worked with.

And so

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Thank you, Garrett.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: anyway,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I'm so sweet of you.

Of

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
anyway, so thank you for being here.

Can you tell us just real quick,
just give us an intro about how,

how you, who you are and, and how
come you're so good at what you do?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Well, thank
you guys so much for having me on here.

Garrett and I play a little
pickleball in the mornings.

And just felt lucky to get an invite.

So here's who, who I've been and who I am.

I I've been like producing tea,
mostly TV for you know, 15 ish years.

Pretty much most of, most of the
networks that you have heard the name of.

I've made a show for some I'm
very proud of, some I hide

away and you'll never know.

But I'll tell you guys

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I, should we IMDB it right now?

We're going to look.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
They're not there.

Some of them are not there.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: you do.

And,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I was I produced
on the kind of on the freelance side

for a lot of years doing TV directing
and producing and doing some writing

then done a couple movies and Yeah.

And then one day, a big network streamer
was like, Hey, come work for us.

And I was like, okay, that sounds fun.

And so I've been at a BYU TV as an
executive producer and a network exec

over here for the last five years.

It's been fun.

It's been really great.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: it's amazing.

I mean, and you say BYUtv and I think,
so a lot of our listeners would be

familiar with that, but many wouldn't be.

And And it, it's, I think
it's a lot bigger than those

letters make it out to be.

You guys have an incredible online
following, including the show that

you're EPing right now, right?

Which, I think you just had last
night's episode had Terry Crews in it.

Are we allowed to talk about that?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah, for sure.

We had Ted Cruz.

Yeah.

So I I executive produced
a bunch of the shows here.

I kind of just oversee the full
creative I don't get in the or

schedules or any of that cause I
don't like it, but I fully oversee

the creative for, for many shows here.

And, it's been great.

I think you know, like we went to
the Emmys this last, last year,

and Netflix is like, Be my who?

And I'm like, Good one, guys.

You know, we're like, kind of
like a boutique little network.

We're a network housed at a school
owned by a church, just like

your Netflix's and your Hulu's.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yes,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: but it, it
has been, we've had like incredible

growth over the last several years.

And like you said, we've had Terry Crews
on Studio C, our sketch comedy show, and

a bunch of other exciting special guests.

Two of my series were nominated for
Emmy Awards, including Best Series.

We lost to the Muppets, as
one does, 60 year institution.

But, yeah, it's been it's been great, man.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: it's a just
to even be able to say we lost to the

Muppets is a pretty sweet achievement So

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: It's pretty fun.

Henson's,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Pretty good.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Henson
is the GOAT, as my kids say.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: hmm.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I don't know what it means.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
yeah, no, that's true Well, cool.

Well, thank you again for taking a few
minutes to chat with us about About

pitching last week Darren and I talked
about three kind of phases of getting to

a pitch You know that cold call or the
you know, warm level pitch to the invited

pitch Now, we wanted to talk about, now
that we're in the room, what do we do?

What does a filmmaker

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

do, and in your experience, so
what is expected when you've invited

somebody to pitch either a show or a
film as an executive, what is expected?

What should we, what
should we bring to you?

Yeah, I think it's the same also for,
I would say film and series because

I think post Breaking Bad all the
best actors want to work in series

and, and they do, and all the best
directors and writers and creators

also work in series because you've
got more time to flesh out characters

and do a lot of development there.

So I would say as you're taking
a movie, I'll be open to the

idea of the series as well.

For me, I think I, I come from,
like I said, like a freelance

producing, directing background, but
I was really super, hungry to pitch

constantly and to try to sell shows.

And I had a lot of really close
things that went to contract

and, got, got very close.

And then I did end up, at a show that
sold ended up selling to Facebook

watch, and I just was obsessed with
like crafting the materials for that.

So and then it's been really
interesting now being on the network

side all the companies that I
worked for for the past 12 months.

Plus years now are pitching
to me on a weekly basis.

So it's been like a, kind of like
a masterclass in like the do's and

the don'ts and like best practices.

And it's, it's really
been fascinating to see.

And also I look at some of the companies,
I'm like, that's what you're taking out.

And which is like great.

And it's it's inspiring for
people who are independent.

And so I think the first thing I would do
is like definitely know who the buyer is.

Like definitely know
what they're looking for.

Look for what their mandate is.

You won't always, as an independent, like
creative, be able to get that information.

That's something that if you've got an
agent, The, the agencies kind of take

out to their to their clientele and
like have that like frequently updated,

but it's a little harder to find.

But once you are able, it sounds like
you've already talked about how to

get, kind of get your foot in the door.

Once you do get your foot in the
door, I think the first thing is to

really know what they're looking for
and and come with something exciting

is, is the best thing you can do.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Okay,
so that information as far as what

they're looking for, we should have
that before going into the room if

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: If possible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Like, I, had a lot of people show up
because we are a very like boutique

kind of niche network and we are
BYUtv, you know, we're not going to,

we, we don't have the same person.

That Netflix has, and we're not
going to green light every project

that comes across our desk.

So we've got to be
really excited about it.

I've had a lot of, some of the best
pitches I've had are when people show

up and they just, sometimes if you
get your foot in the door, it's fine

to say, can I just do like a mandate?

Update with you or like get a, get
a a mandate call on the books and,

and usually just take 30 minutes and
just say, what are you looking for?

Is there any, people
ask this question a lot.

Are there any like boxes you're trying
to fill and, 'cause like most networks

we're a bit more of a sandbox where we can
kind of play in a, a lot more spaces as

long as it hits a few like key criteria.

But most networks, you know,
food, they're gonna do food.

HG is gonna do Reno and so.

You need to kind of know what they're
looking for, but it's fine to ask for a

mandate call or like meet about a mandate.

And then even i've had kind of hybrid
meetings where somebody asks Or up front

like can you walk me through the mandate?

I've got a couple things but i'd love to
know what the mandate is And then they'll

say well i've got three or four They'll
say I've got three or four projects, but

three of them actually aren't a great fit.

So I'm just going to skip that.

And I very much respect when somebody
respects, like, my time after I've

told them what the mandate is, because
I'll have agents from major agencies.

That'll ask me for the mandate.

I'll give it to them.

And then they'll say, how
about a paintball gun show?

And I'm like, what about anything
I just said makes you think that

that's a fit and it drives me crazy.

So as, as somebody who's getting
pitched constantly and just has to

go through those, that, that churn
and burn, if you can show up With

something fresh and also kind of
know what, what I, what I'm looking

for, just like a general direction.

It's, it's helpful, but you
don't always have to know.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

So Luke, I mean, I was in your
office pitching you two weeks

ago or something like that.

And I think for the audience
and for context sake, that's

exactly how our conversation went.

I said, I'm Tell me about
your mandate because we didn't

do it before the meeting.

So we took the first, I don't know,
10 or 15 to get a really good grip

grip or grasp on you're at now.

Cause I'd pitched the network to
you coming on board and it was

a different mandate back then.

So it was nice to get that update.

And then I did the same thing.

I was like, eh, one of them is
probably not for you now that I know.

Right.

And so.

can just, I just wanted to throw that
context in to say, you're not lying to us.

You're not making this up.

Like it's really a fair thing to go
in either knowing the mandate or being

willing to spend some of the time.

If you've got 30 minutes to
meet, maybe don't take too

much time on getting an update.

But you know, I think we had an
hour together and a good chunk of

that was understanding the mandate
and then we'll get into the pitch,

but I think we could even use.

We could put you on the spot and
you can give me feedback on how

I did and everything, but like,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Sure.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: I do
think that was extremely helpful because

even as I was pitching, I could, I could
lean into different parts of the outline

or the pitch that I had prepared knowing
that they were going to hit those marks.

better than other points.

And so there were entire sections I kind
of skipped over and I was like, well,

that's not really relevant anymore.

So we'll just move to the next part.

That is.

And that was really helpful.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

Yeah.

You adapted well too, because like,
like I said, we are, so niche.

It's like you heard things and
then you kind of like picked up on

things and you kind of ask the right
questions to steer that and out how

to weave in like our needs into it.

And, you know, like a Netflix, if you go
to a Netflix or like an Amazon, it's like

different execs are going to be looking
for different things at different times.

And that is true of all networks.

So it is nice to get kind of a refresh,
but some of these places just, you

know, You could take almost anything
there depending on, on if you're,

what you're bringing to the table.

But the very, the best thing, the most
exciting pitches to me are when I feel

like, oh, these guys or gals hear me and.

Have listened and now are like up on
that and saying, Oh, this actually might

work in that space because of X, Y, Z.

And so I think you did that.

Just for context, I'll get a little
bit more into like what you should

probably come to the pitch with
and I'll give you Darren some

like a real in real time feedback.

Truth be told, I know Darren and
like I said, Oh, dude, come on back.

Like I know you pitched forever ago.

And so I kind of just like put them on
the spot and he didn't have a big window.

I would always, always I would always
come with materials in hand and

you didn't obviously have a deck.

And I probably said,
don't worry about a deck.

Just give us a log line and
a paragraph or whatever.

But I think you're basically
like, you've got one.

One chance of a first impression, right?

I know both of you.

So like, and I trust both of you
and think you're great creators.

So if you come to me, I'm
going to be like, Oh, cool.

I will engage here.

But if I don't know you, like you've
got to win me over pretty quickly.

You don't have a lot of time to do it.

And I'm an easy guy to win over.

I just like people and I like
store I'm a sucker for good story.

So so when you show up.

I would try to have a deck in hand.

I would try to have a deck that
very clearly at the very least

have a one sheet that kind of like
spells out what you're trying to do.

If you can put a deck
together, you should do so.

And that is and words to really
convey what you're trying to sell.

Because that is what you're doing.

You're trying to sell us on spending
a lot of money on your thing.

And get us excited about it and
get us excited about why we should.

so the game has changed quite a bit.

I used to pay editor, editors, a lot
of money to make a Franken sizzle

or even like an original sizzle.

And I used to pay designers a lot
of money to make decks for me.

And it was obnoxious because
I spent a lot of money as like

an independent contractor.

I don't have a, I don't
have a production company.

Development funds.

And so the game has changed though.

Now you can get on AI and kick
out a bunch of rad AI imagery.

You can get on a place like shot deck
and grab a bunch of like film, like film

or TV stills, and then just like get on
Canva or whatever, whatever software you

want to use and put a rad deck together.

in that deck, so that's
where the feedbacks comes.

Derek, Darren didn't have a
deck, but I knew he wouldn't

have a deck when he showed up.

So do come with that in hand.

And we have a shorthand.

I, I can, I can take that further down
the road on steps if I like the concept.

Yeah, go

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: What,
what is in that deck then you know,

are you looking for budgets and cast
and scripts or what, what do you need?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I wouldn't.

I know like you guys are
both indie filmmakers.

And so like the indie film
game is another thing.

So when you're going to investors,
you want them to know like how

much money they have to spend.

And you want them to know like, what
are these comps look like of like,

how do you make your money back?

That's less important for us
because we just want to get

excited about storytelling first.

We, if we love it, we're going to make
it, we're going to find the right partners

or spend the money ourselves to do it.

So if if we love it, that's
all that needs to happen.

When you're going to like a network
or a streamer, they don't expect you

to have done, you know, like had a,
Line producer or UPM, like do a full

budget already and be like, here's
where every penny is going to be spent

because like a network or a streamer
is going to have a lot of feedback

on what they want that thing to be.

You're going to bring an idea and then
I'm going to say, cool, here's how

we make this right for us, or here's
how we make this the, to my liking

and sensibilities and storytelling.

So that budget you come with
may be totally different.

So you'd be wasting your time.

I would put in the deck You're, you're,
you have one job with the deck and that's

to get me excited about the project.

And so you want to come with a
deck that's like full of imagery

and like, and the words that
are going to help me to do that.

I would always start with a title page
and I would have like, tonally, the

images feel like what you're going for.

Kind of the feel and the tone.

I would have that in the on a title
page with some image in your title.

I'd have a log line and probably
a summary or like a, a summary.

Kind of a brief description of
what the series is or the film is.

And then you want to kind of get,
like, get into the weeds a little bit.

Who are the characters and why
am I going to care about them?

What are their arcs and story arcs?

And why am I gonna, and what is
the overall like spark arc of

the story you're trying to tell?

Get me excited about that.

And I'm going to be
just all over your deck.

And so I would spend probably a page to.

pages getting a title, a log line, maybe
three and then like a summary page.

And then I'd spend maybe 10 ish pages
helping me understand the world.

What's the big picture.

Who are the characters?

Break them out for me.

I wouldn't necessarily
do a page per character.

Sometimes there are minor characters
that you can squeeze together.

You can do episode kind of
breakdowns on, on different pages.

You don't always have to come with
episode breakdowns, but if you do.

Then I can see it really fast.

If you know what the series needs to
be, then I'm going to be like, Oh, wow.

I have had a deck where I'm like,
this is exactly episode for episode.

It was an eight part limited series.

I'm like, this is exactly
how I would have done this.

And like we moved forward.

But you can have more general.

Big picture, bird's eye overview of what
the story will be, who the characters

will be, how they'll intersect with each
other, and then just like, why do I care?

Like, what is it?

Like, what is, what is
wowing me about that?

And so I wouldn't spend a lot of time on
from the team that brought you X, Y, Z.

I sometimes do that.

If I like partner with big.

And I can use their name to leverage
just a little bit or a show name.

I wouldn't worry so much about that
because really, if you get me sold

on story, I'm going to be pretty
stoked to dive into the materials.

And then on the back end, I would just
probably wrap up with like maybe like a

tone and a feel or like aesthetic, like
what you're going for, like some comps,

types of movie films or like series
that you are trying to Be in the world

of and then just like a contact page,
put your number and your name on there.

And that's it, man.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: That's,
it's encouraging Luke because you,

you, you haven't said anything
that an indie filmmaker and indie

storyteller couldn't come up with.

You know, you haven't said, Hey,
you need to have a showrunner, an

experienced showrunner attached
or a name actor attached.

Which is great.

You know, when I hear that, I think, okay,
well, it's, if it's truly about story,

that's what we do, like, that's, that's
what we as storytellers, independent

filmmakers, that's what we come up with.

Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
the, what's that show?

My kid loves where they go to the
nether world and there's our plants

with faces and they're monsters
on these stranger things, things.

Like I'm sure you guys have.

Avatar, Airbender I'm sure you guys
have looked at that deck, but there's

a great deck that the Duffer Brothers
put out of, and it's just like,

they didn't have anybody attached.

look at Firefest, dude.

Like, those guys went in and just,
like, had a great song and a dance.

That's all they had.

Nothing other than a song and a
dance, and people spent millions.

I've heard Cinco, Paul and Kendario,
the guys who do all the Dr.

Seuss movies and created the minions.

I've heard them say, when they first went
in, they rolled the piano in and they

did like musical numbers, even though
like they weren't even part of the thing.

If you can entertain me in
the pitch and get me really

like, Oh, like I'm loving this.

Like that's a, it's a fast way to get
me sold on something and try to get me

to start spending spending some money on

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: What's also
encouraging, Garrett, along those lines

is, I went to Sundance this last year
and heard Mark Duplass talk about his

indie series that he funded himself

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

Penelope.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Series
are going to Sundance now as indies.

So indie film and indie series
is, they're indistinguishable now.

And you can sell a series to a Netflix
or an Amazon after you take it to,

take it to Sundance or Film Fest or
wherever, or just put it on YouTube.

The Yo Gabba Gabba guys, who I do a
lot of work with they they forever try

to get Yo Gabba Gabba off the ground.

First of all, they try
to get the show off the

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: And I
was obsessed with the Aquabats as a

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Teenager.

try to get that off the ground for years.

Bobcat, Goldthwait did it Sizzle.

They just say the story about
that is pretty incredible.

Then they make Gabba.

They just made all these crazy
characters with no mouth, no lip flap.

And just, just like very, like,
like, Not overly stimulating set, but

like very artistic because like they
have a brother who's like a great

artist who like could draw this stuff
and create all these characters.

And Christian, the creator is, is like
a wizard and, and, and his partner.

And so those guys made a sizzle
actually they made a pilot of a series.

Nobody wanted it.

Everybody passed.

it on.

And I was following the whole thing
cause I was writing an Aquabats

like feature film at the time.

I ended up like writing and directing
some Aquabats super show, like,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Nice.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: like a

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Amazing.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
like commercials.

But and that was like my dream
job because I was obsessed.

But these guys put it on YouTube, this
whole pilot and 22 minutes or whatever.

And just, it was magical, instantly viral,
and pretty soon, I'm like, slinging cell

phones in the Glendale Galleria in LA
when I'm trying to write screenplays at

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: and I'm looking
at this thing every day and reading the

comments, and in two days, this thing was
off YouTube, and I'm like, what happened?

Nickelodeon saw that it picked
back up, and they had already

gone through, and they're like,
actually, we do want that thing

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Wow.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: loves,
that we didn't see the vision on.

And so like, there really are unlimited
avenues, I think, in film and in in

series to like get your stuff out there
and be seen, even if you can't get your

foot in the door at a network streamer.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: So
that brings up a question though,

of like the order of operations or
how, how you prefer things to work.

Cause if I'm going to, put a whole pitch
deck together, do you want that ahead

of time or am I coming into the room and
walking you through slide by slide on

a, a projector, but you know, on a TV
screen, or am I, you have a little booklet

that you're going through one by one?

For me.

The way I like pitching
is very kind of fluid.

And so the idea of a, here's a pitch
deck that I'm going to go through

page by page together, feels arduous,
feels like maybe that's not the

right approach, but, how does someone
coming into a pitch meeting do that?

Are they setting aside five
minutes to go with an overview and

then you dive into it together?

Does it change every time?

Like what's kind of the best
way for us to think about

utilizing that deck in the pitch?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: This
is why your pitch was good

because you had great questions.

Just like that.

Darren.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Oh,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Ooh.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
it's both for me.

It's both.

And that is that it's project dependent
for me on if I am going to pre send it

or if I am going to wait till arrival.

If I feel like I've got the ultimate
like song and a dance that like

doesn't really work without me being
in the room and really slinging it,

I probably won't send it in advance.

it's, But on the flip, I sometimes try
to gauge interest or get my foot in the

door or whatever, by saying, Hey, is
this something you guys would ever like?

If it's not something that feels like
I'm not there, cause I do feel like

I'm really good at selling and sales.

I don't, I know that not every
project is for everyone and some

projects will never find a home.

So.

For some projects, if I am trying
to be strategic about how I get it

there, I might say, Hey, is this
something that you guys would ever do?

But sometimes like it's my lesser project
where the materials are fun, but it

just helps me like, then talk about
like, get to the next one, you know?

And so I have done that before.

So I think it just totally depends.

I think it's like, if you don't
think you can me excited about

it without you being there.

Then, then show up if sometimes you
can't get a meeting and sometimes

it's just worth getting materials out
there and saying, Hey, is this ever

something you guys would even consider?

Or is this in your wheelhouse at all?

And, and so I think it just I
would just feel it out project.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Nice.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Luke, once,
once we've pitched, we say, hey, you know,

okay, I went in delivered my, my deck did
the song and dance, rolled in the piano.

How do we know That it was a success.

Like what, what's the expectation
that I should walk away

and go, Hey, that was good.

You know, is it a, Oh, they're going
to fund the movie and I'll give me,

they're going to give me a couple
million dollar check or is there a

development fund or how does, what,
what, what is a good positive next step?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah,
I mean, that's all streamer or

network based depending on like
what that that's those steps look

like for you and those next steps.

The way that I try to look at it is
like, I walk out of there and it's just

like an actor who goes to auditions.

It's like, well it's done.

It doesn't mean I don't follow up,
but like, I emotionally try to detach

from it because like, the truth be
told, like I've been pitched, I've

been here five years and received
thousands of pitches, good and bad.

And even the like ones that are
in the 99th percentile, like,

Many of those never get made.

It's like you're, you have to like
do whatever works there at the time.

You've got to do the thing
of getting the exec excited.

And then the exec has to
convince the people spending all

the money to spend the money.

And so like, I let go of all that, or
I try to, I remain hopefully optimistic

and I do due diligence in my followup.

But if I tell you, Hey, this is great.

Like we'd love to like.

Look into like a development step on
this, that's a great sign for you.

A lot of streamer networks used
to just be like, I love it.

I'll buy it.

Here is $5 million for
the pilot or whatever.

And that's not really as
much the case anymore.

People are trying to, I mean,
as you know, the industry's in

turmoil, like all the way around.

And so people and networks
and streamers are being more.

being more careful with
the money they spend.

And it's also like hard to have like a
stinker or like something that you think

is a hit and nobody finds it or the
algorithm doesn't push it or whatever.

And so yeah.

After you leave, like regardless of what
happens, I would always follow up with

an email and just be like, Hey, and if
there's materials, additional materials

sent over, that's a time to send those.

Thanks so much.

That was so great.

Like diving in and really
learning what you guys are all

about and what you're up to.

I love what you're up to.

And I I hope we can find something
to figure out to do together.

And then don't be annoying after that.

There is like squeaky
wheel, like it's the grease.

And there's also like squeaky wheel
is so, greasy or squeaky wheel.

So squeaky that I replaced the wheel
eventually, you know what I mean?

And so like, it's a, it's a fine line.

Cause I do have a a guy who's a
brilliant salesman who sold me a

series or sold a series recently
that, and he's a dear friend.

So I feel like he'll be fine with me
saying this who was, He was very squeaky.

And at times it's like, I'm trying
to do notes on my cuts and scripts.

And anyways, it's just like, you
do, you do just want to be, you

want them to remember you, but
also not be annoying to them.

And this guy wasn't doing that.

This guy is, but there have
been people who do that.

There are people who up two
days later, Hey, do you get a

chance to read those materials?

It's like, This is two weeks out at least
before I probably even see this thing

and and I want to talk about it with my
team and I want to review and I want to

digest and I want to look at it properly.

So yeah, I'd say like, give it
three weeks, drop them a line and

be like, Hey, just checking to see
if you had a chance to check it out.

And then if they don't
respond, give them more time.

If they do respond and say,
Hey, sorry, I've been so busy.

That's usually what the response is.

Always give them a month, give them
two months and just like, them you're

there, but don't drive them crazy.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah, I
want to actually go back a step because

when you're in the pitch how, you know,
I don't know if you always set aside an

hour or you always set aside 30 minutes
or if it's kind of project dependent.

But how do you like that time to be used?

Do you want them to pitch for 20
percent and then converse about

it and kind of jam on it for 80%?

Cause I'll give my side of it.

That's what I prefer.

Because I want to know if the,
the big idea is resonating at all.

And if it is, let's jam on it to
see if I want to work with you too.

Like what, what's it going to be like
to work with the development exec?

What kind of ideas are
you coming back with?

Does it, do I feel like it
pluses the project or is like,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: And

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: I'm
kind of using the balance of the time.

would be like to work with and
to experience what you would be

like representing the network.

in in when you've been on
our side of the pitching?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I think you nailed it.

E.

Exactly.

Darren.

I think it is like for me, because I am a
sucker for good story, I'm going to latch

onto the things that are exciting about
the story you're bringing me, or I'm going

to be like, huh, what if this was this
and that might work for a network and.

It's helpful.

You don't want to pitch the whole
time and then be like, see you later.

Because it is, it's
like, it's what you said.

It's like, I'm going to see what
you would be like as a partner.

You're going to see if I'm going to be in
a an exec that you hate and it's possible.

But I'm going to see like how.

you take notes, because most of my job
is giving notes on your creative and

sculpting that creative from top level
to make it the needs of what we need

here or anywhere that's wherever you go.

And so, That is an important time
for me to have that time to chat,

to throw ideas your way or say,
what if, and then see how you react.

And then I'm like, Oh, okay, this
guy not only can take a note,

but he also can plus a note.

Like he can take something that
I said and then make a pivot

that I might not have thought of.

And that's exciting to me
when I see that somebody.

And it registers and it's like, Oh, but
also, and then we get excited together.

That's the best, the very best meeting
you can be in in a pitch is like,

we're like, it feels like I'm there
creating it with you in the moment.

And if you can trick me into
doing that, then you win, because.

I'm going to be like, yes.

And then yeah.

Oh, and then this, and, and then you just
sit back and be like, yeah, here we go.

This is great.

So, and there have been very few pitches
that have done that and it's rare.

And if you find the right thing
and the right exec and, and and

get them excited and do the, do
all the steps, then, then you might

just like mix some magic together

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
That's awesome to hear.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Luke, you've
been super generous with your time.

Any, you know, maybe, maybe you've got
time for one more question unless you want

to hang out with us for, for longer, but,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: all

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
all day, right?

Hang on there.

Listener.

He's with us still.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: First time,
very long time we've been on this call.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
So, any, you're a storyteller.

I know you as an incredible storyteller.

Any great success stories or horror
stories of pitches gone well or pitches

gone terribly that you'd want to end with?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I think,
I think it's harder for me to talk

about some of the ones that have gone
really well, because we're probably

in like active development on the
ones that have like gone really well.

And they're not quite there yet, but
maybe we could do a follow up and I

could like tell you like the, this.

Because there have been a couple
of pitches recently that that I

just, it was that I was obsessed and

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Really?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
they brought a thing to me.

I mean, page two of one of them.

I'm like, is this that
that no, like it is.

And I was like, man, you
could not have brought me.

Me personally, something
more exciting because I knew

right where they were going.

And so there have been a couple of those.

I, I think on like the good,
the best version of pitches, I

would just be very strategic.

Like this is a relationship business.

Don't worry.

I get this a lot.

And I guess this is kind
of the good and the bad.

I'll tell you what I
do and what I've seen.

I have people who are so anxious to
just the thing to me or like get the

information out that they don't stop
to like do the relationship part of

it or do the engagement part of it.

And that's really important.

And so on some of the things that I
do, like on like independent projects

or whatever before I came here.

I I mean, I would have a long game of
like 12 months sometimes before I even

tried to set up a thing because I would
have these touch points, you know, you

guys talked about that sales process
and how to get your foot in the door.

And actually, while I was trying to
get in film and TV, I was doing sales

and marketing for like 10 years.

And so.

The more you can learn how to sell
well, the better you're going to be.

And it is relationships
and don't rush that.

Like take the time to have the person
on your side when you arrive and have

them excited to see you, if you can.

Don't worry so much about like,
Oh my gosh, I got this, my first

pitch and, and then just blow it.

I, I mean and then just like be fluid.

Like you said, Darren, be like,
some improv classes, right?

Garrett, that'll, there's

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yes, and

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: you more
in life improv classes and and also

read some sales books and read read
the Deplass brothers book about like

filmmaking and, and whatever, just
like get into the mindset of what it

just means to go out and find people
cause all really anybody wants to

do is make cool things with people.

They like, that's all anyone wants to do.

My job isn't like some, like here's
a stamp of approval, green light.

Like that sounds like a miserable job.

My job is to get in the weeds
and the creative with you guys

and just be like, This is awesome
and like get excited together.

And so that's what you want to approach
it as of think of that end goal of like

someone that you should want to get
really excited together about a thing.

Some bad, some don'ts.

I've seen a couple a dude brought
a hundred page deck to us once.

And I'm just, and I thought, you know,
And what you said, Darren, earlier,

they read every, block of text to us.

And I'm like, I scroll forward.

I was like, how long is this?

I, and, it was truly like 97
And I was like, what is this?

Like my head exploded because
I'm like, did these guys even get

this meeting through their agency?

And there was a big agency.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: I shared
that exact story last week on me

bringing a deck that was super long
and the executives were just like,

after page seven, like, okay, see,
let's talk about where we're going.

So,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I think,
I think it, I think 12 to 20 is the

sweet spot, like on page number.

I know some people will
tell you to do less.

I think to get like,
here's what I would say.

Do as much as you can with as little as
you can and like, and look, is anything

fluff or excess that I can cut away here?

I used to, I used to do decks that were
like five to seven and that was fine.

Now I do like to like dive
into story a little bit more.

At least I like to see stuff
that's a little bit more.

So my decks would usually be about 10 to
10 to 20 pages depending on the project.

and then another thing like
this is a very dear friend.

So I'm going to share the story
and not tell you it was, but I

go to like a filmmaker summit.

And this friend, he's in, I mean,
he's a genius, he's a creative

genius and he's actually somebody
that I'm really interested in

doing a lot of exciting stuff with.

And so let me preface it with that.

But the dude did have like a
hundred page deck and not only

did I have a hundred page deck.

Well, first he brings out this
giant, like it was like a sci fi

thing and like a small town sci
fi thing and like a period piece.

And he brings out this crate.

And it's like, it's got
all these props in it.

And we're like, this is awesome.

It's got like a top secret government,
everything in like, Hey, and like, this

crate had been like discovered somewhere.

I'm like, this is fun.

This is that song and dance
that's rolling the piano in.

But then in addition to that, he
had this hundred page deck and

it was like all over the place.

It was like.

This page is like the recipe page that
you've seen a lot of decks of take a

pinch of this and a fourth cup of that.

And it's like, I've done that
in food shows before, but this

was for a sci fi like series.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
And he's a friend.

And so maybe I'll say,
Hey, I, Maybe roast,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
we talked you up on our show.

We can do that.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: But,
but but, and so anyway, it just

like, it didn't have the fluidity.

It did not have like the consistent tone
and feel it like jumped like tonally

and it jumped to different vibes.

And like, and it also just like, it's
like, well, what are we reading by now?

Just give me like
everything I need to know.

And then just like, let's chat
through it and talk about it.

And that's.

the best way you can do it.

But like, if you got a fun crate, like
this this dude, I will tell you, like, I'm

developing something else with them here.

And he's like, I want to
do a leather bound book.

I'm like, that is awesome.

I'm like, I don't need it because
like, all I need is the PDF to review.

But like, I do think that would be
awesome to hand to someone because

there's something about a tactile thing
when you, when you show up, I don't

think it's necessary, but like, it's the
little things in life, you know, and if

you can wow someone in another way, you
can actually like, do a little bit of

the balancing of like, if your story's
not quite all there yet, you can do more

heavy lifting with, with something, but
it's gotta be like appropriate for the

project that made complete sense that
this like governmental alien, whatever

he showed up with like this box that

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Had been recovered.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: That's

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Fun, man.

What a cool, what a, yeah,
what a, what an amazing job you

have and you're so good at it.

And it's fun to see your shows and,
and the outcome of, you know, you can

always see kind of Luke's fingerprints
in different things and I love it.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Thanks buddy.

I appreciate that.

You guys are rad.

And I'm excited to,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Thanks, man.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: like
share and subscribe to this

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yes, please.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I hope
everyone is ending that bell.

then and then also like I'm I love
both you guys and I'm excited to see

all this stuff that comes out of your
brains in the next many, many years.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108:
Oh man, I love that dude.

Luke is a newer friend.

I've known him for a long, long
time, but we just recently bonded

over tacos and nachos, and then he
invited me to come in and pitch.

And it was a really cool convo.

And I mean, you guys are, are besties.

So it was a great get way
to get him on the show.

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108: yeah.

Well, he's so great to even
spend time with us and come on.

He and I worked on a series couple of
years ago and just bonded and thought,

man, this guy is so fun to work with.

And, and so yeah, it's been fun
to now connect with him and we

get together weekly to chat or
play pickleball or whatever it is.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108:
He came into BYU TV right

after I'd left relative race.

I was working on a TV show for
them for four seasons and he

came in like the year after that.

So I'd never overlapped with
them or got to work with them.

But after pitching, I was like,
man, this would be a fun dude to

jam on a show with and get notes
from and to be in meetings with.

And so I have not yet followed
up as per his advice, I figured

I'd get past the holiday.

This week and reach out to him next
week, but it was nice to hear that,

you know, he enjoyed the pitch as well.

It was a fun meeting that
we took a few weeks ago.

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108: It was
interesting to hear how, honestly,

how, how long the deck should be.

You know, I was in kind of that
five to seven page range, but

he's saying, no, make it 12 to 15.

I like what he said about saying,
saying as much as you can with

as little as, as you need.

Which is great.

And so I'm working on a deck
right now, pitching a feature

film building that deck.

And I've got.

You know, 14 pages of treatment
information, just all written out.

then you know, even more research.

And so now it's a matter of
saying, what should I put into

the deck and just focus on story?

I don't have to, I don't have
to cast, you know, Ethan Hawk

as our lead to start pitching.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108: Yeah,

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108:
let's just get.

Deck put together tell the
story and that's enough if that

should be enough to sell it.

That's encouraging.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108:
it is encouraging.

I think it's an interesting
thing for me to think through

because you need less going in.

You don't need a budget.

You don't need attachments.

You don't need all this packaging that
you would need in like indie film, but

you're also have way fewer options.

I think when it comes to a, how many
networks there are B, how many you can

actually go and pitch C the ones that.

Who's mandates line up with
the project that you have.

And like you said, he's taken
thousands of pitches in five years.

And I think they've probably greenlit 0.

1 percent or so of those shows.

Like it's, I think the odds are
maybe worse for pitching TV shows.

But if you get it, I
mean, that's a great gig.

You know, at very least you're going to
have, A season pickup, I think in most

places most places aren't going to just
string you along episode by episode.

They'll order a season or the front nine
or the back nine like they used to do.

But like yeah, I'm, I'm
intrigued to see how this goes.

I've never had a pitch that
like got into development with

a TV show or anything like that.

So we'll definitely talk
about it if it gets there.

But yeah, I think for the people
listening, We all have ideas

that could go anywhere, right?

We have ideas for, for streaming,
for network, for movies, for

everything, because that's who we are.

So where's the best place
to put your time and energy?

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108: Yeah
It's an interesting statistic Darren

that you bring up, you know If he's
receiving pitches every week and that

network has a couple of executives there
They're also sitting in different pitch

meetings and hearing these shows and
series and you figure Hey, maybe once

a season, you know, every season they
announce one or two more shows, you know,

that four shows a year that are new.

right.

The odds are terrible.

And it's, you have to think
as an Indy, why do that?

Why go to the effort then and pitch?

You know, if I can make a film
and pitch investors directly, I

can make my, my series or my film.

And so, yeah, I guess you balance.

It might be, I think as artists, we get
so hopeful, like, Oh, that's amazing.

I just got a pitch.

You know, as an actor, I get an
audition you just go, are you kidding?

Like I have to wait for somebody else
to give me permission to make my show.

That being said, when I do go in and
pitch, you know, I'm in the room and

whether they make my show or, you know,
this happens enough that I keep pitching

that they call back and say, Hey.

You know I don't know, you
know, thanks for pitching.

Here's this other thing that we'd
like, would you mind developing

this or help come direct an
episode of this or whatever it is.

So to be in the room and to be kind
of in and front of mind is worth it.

Where you might not get the
part you're auditioning for,

but you do want that callback.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108: Yeah.

It's very similar to, you know, an actor
who becomes friends with the director.

Not in any sort of manipulative or
opportunistic way, but like, you know,

when we were casting faith of angels, we
went down the list of our friends first,

like who would be good for this role?

Oh, we had two or three
that instantly popped up.

They didn't have to audition.

We called them and said, Hey,
what are you doing in September?

You know, like, I think it's
very similar to like Luke.

Luke knows us.

He came to our premieres,
at least the Carpenter.

I don't know if he was at Faith of
Angels premiere, but like, this is a

guy that we were seeing around town.

I ran into him at lunch one day when
I was out on a date with my wife.

He's like, dude, come pitch me.

Okay.

And then a week later, I'm in his
office going, what is this meeting?

Like, why am I pitching you?

So I think that's, that goes back to what
he was talking about, about relationships.

Like if you, if you need it really
badly, if this is your last ditch

effort and everything, your entire
income and your career and everything

hinges on getting this pitch to land
and getting this show ordered, man,

that's too much pressure to put on.

Something that's just a fragile little
idea that needs a lot of development

and nurturing in order to get to
the point where it can be a TV show.

But yeah, man, so many ideas, so many
great tidbits and little nuggets of

knowledge there from his very successful
career doing this for a living.

So man loved it.

Love that conversation.

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108: Yeah.

Good stuff.

Well, thank you.

Thanks for your questions and thank you
to the listeners and watchers for joining.

Again, if you have questions or or ideas
that you'd like us to cover, shoot us

an email go to the website, which is 3.

pro.

com slash podcast.

And leave your comments there.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108: Awesome.

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108: Anything

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108: good one.

I don't think so, man.

Well, I think next week we
probably are due for an update.

Happy Thanksgiving.

That's this week.

So we're, you know, just, I,
I posted about this yesterday.

I was like, don't slow down.

Like we're getting into holiday time.

So if you're, if you've been one
of the handful of people that,

you know, have told me they've
been on podcast since episode one.

Like don't slow down for
the next four or five weeks.

Push hard through the holidays.

That doesn't mean you have to work during
Thanksgiving dinner, but like, don't

just take the next month off because the
way that you're going to set yourself

up for January is how, how much progress
you make over the next four weeks

between Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving.

Just, you know, the day after Thanksgiving
and the day after New Year's Eve.

And so I think it's just really
imperative for people that are trying

to get projects funded or get into
the rooms with people or whatever it

might be to move your projects forward.

Don't slow down, keep up the pace,
keep messaging people, keep taking

meetings, keep pushing, keep posting,
keep sharing because You're going to

stand out from everyone else who just
kind of goes dark for the next four

weeks going, Oh, well, the industry
goes to sleep during the holidays.

So I might as well not even try.

Well, if you got that mindset,
yeah, you shouldn't try.

Might as well not

garrett_3_11-26-2024_150108:
Good, good advice.

thank you very much for, for, for tuning
in, and I can't wait to see you next week.

daren-smith_3_11-26-2024_150108:
say, man, take care.

Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.

To join us on the journey,
be notified of and ask us

questions about today's episode.

Head over to 3coinpro.

com slash podcast.

And put in your name and an email address.

If you're a fan of the show, please
leave us a review on your favorite

podcast app and be sure to share this.

Thanks for listening.

And we'll see you next week.

Our intro and outro music is
election time by Kjartan Abel.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Okay, I believe, oh my gosh,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Silence.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
one frame per 30 seconds.

So, okay.

we're recording.

Should be good.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Silence.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Give me the cue.

Was that the cue?

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
that's the cue.

Thumbs up.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Okay, good.

All right, good.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Silence.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Hello, hello.

Uh, welcome.

Darren, how are you?

Welcome to another episode
of Truly Independent.

Can you hear me?

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Awesome.

I'm good, man.

And, uh, our, our show got a little
more handsome today, it looks like.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Oh, well, we haven't.

Is this before we've
introduced the guest or after?

Uh,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Before.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: oh, okay.

Uh, no, I'm very excited about, uh,
about, uh, the, uh, the episode this week.

Uh, we're recording this a little
bit later than we typically do.

We're at two o'clock, uh, instead
of our regular morning session.

Uh, but that's because I've
invited a, a dear friend of

mine to join us, Luke Johnson.

How are you, Luke?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: So good.

Hey guys.

First time, long time.

Thanks so much for having me.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Uh, that's a very,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I've been
workshopping that for a couple of

days now, so I hope that we're, I
hope that actually crushes with your

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
the first time, long time bit.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I love it.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: It's like
something people say on the radio.

If you go back and listen to the

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, uh, uh, Jim Rome.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
It's an original joke.

And I appreciate the time you put
into preparing that for us today.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Thanks buddy.

Appreciate that.

Oh

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Luke,
speaking of first time, long time, we've

been, we've worked on several projects
in different capacities for a long time.

Uh, I don't know how that
segues from first time, long

time, but, um, just go with it.

All right, just go with it.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: God.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: And,
uh, I chatted with you about coming

onto the show to talk about, because
this season Darren and I are focusing

a hundred percent on development,
uh, and hopefully we'll get into pre

production, but mostly it's development.

Um, For independent filmmakers and project
creators and entrepreneurs who want to

figure out how to take an idea from very
concepts to starting to kind of initiating

and funding and all of that stuff.

And you, um, I'm not, I'm not
exaggerating when I say you are, I

think one of the best at like developing
concepts that I've ever worked with.

And so

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Thank you, Garrett.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: anyway,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I'm so sweet of you.

Of

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
anyway, so thank you for being here.

Can you tell us just real quick,
just give us an intro about, uh, how,

how you, who you are and, and how
come you're so good at what you do?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Well, thank
you guys so much for having me on here.

Garrett and I play a little
pickleball in the mornings.

And, uh, just felt lucky to get an invite.

So, um, here's who, who
I've been and who I am.

I, uh, I've been like producing tea,
mostly TV for, uh, you know, 15 ish years.

Uh, pretty much most of, most of the
networks that you have heard the name of.

I've made a show for some I'm
very proud of, some I hide

away and you'll never know.

But I'll tell you guys

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I, should we IMDB it right now?

We're going to look.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
They're not there.

Some of them are not there.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: you do.

And,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I was, uh,
I produced on the, uh, kind of on

the freelance side for a lot of years
doing TV directing and producing

and doing some writing then, uh,
done a couple movies and, uh, Yeah.

And then one day, a big network streamer
was like, Hey, come work for us.

And I was like, okay, that sounds fun.

And so I've been at a BYU TV as an
executive producer and a network exec

over here for the last five years.

It's been fun.

It's been really great.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
uh, it's amazing.

I mean, and you say BYUtv and I think,
so a lot of our listeners would be

familiar with that, but many wouldn't be.

And, uh, And it, it's, I think
it's a lot bigger than, uh, than

those letters make it out to be.

Um, you guys have an incredible online
following, including the show that you're

EPing right now, right?

Which, I think you just had last
night's episode had Terry Crews in it.

Are we allowed to talk about that?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah, for sure.

We had Ted Cruz.

Yeah.

So I, uh, I executive produced
a bunch of the shows here.

Uh, I kind of just oversee the full
creative, uh, I don't get in the

or schedules or any of that cause I
don't like it, but I fully oversee the

creative, uh, for, for many shows here.

And, um, it's been great.

I think, uh, you know, like we went
to the Emmys this last, last year,

and Netflix is like, Be my who?

And I'm like, Good one, guys.

You know, we're like, kind of
like a boutique little network.

Uh, we're a network housed at a
school owned by a church, just like

your Netflix's and your Hulu's.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yes,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: but it, it
has been, we've had like incredible

growth over the last several years.

And like you said, we've had
Terry Crews on, uh, Studio C, our

sketch comedy show, and a bunch
of other exciting special guests.

Uh, two of my series were nominated for,
uh, Emmy Awards, including Best Series.

We lost to the Muppets, as
one does, 60 year institution.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: you know,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: but, yeah,
it's been, uh, it's been great, man.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: it's a just
to even be able to say we lost to the

Muppets is a pretty sweet achievement So

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: It's pretty fun.

Henson's,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Pretty good.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Henson
is the GOAT, as my kids say.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: hmm.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I don't know what it means.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
yeah, no, that's true Well, cool.

Well, thank you again for taking a few
minutes to chat with us about About

pitching last week Darren and I talked
about three kind of phases of getting to

a pitch You know that cold call or the
you know, warm level pitch to the invited

pitch Now, we wanted to talk about, now
that we're in the room, what do we do?

What does a filmmaker

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

do,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: uh,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
and in your experience,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: you know, so,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
so what is expected when,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: uh,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: you've invited
somebody to pitch either a show or a

film as an executive, what is expected?

What should we, what
should we bring to you?

Yeah, I think it's the same also for,
I would say film and series because I

think post Breaking Bad, uh, all the
best actors want to work in series

and, and they do, and all the best
directors and writers and creators

also work in series because you've
got more time to flesh out characters

and do a lot of development there.

So I would say as you're taking
a movie, I'll be open to the

idea of the series as well.

Um, for me, I think, uh, I, I come
from, like I said, like a freelance

producing, directing background, but
I was really super, hungry to pitch

constantly and to try to sell shows.

And, uh, I had a lot of really
close, uh, things that went to, uh,

contract and, got, got very close.

And then I did end up, uh, at a show
that sold ended up selling to Facebook

watch, and I just was obsessed with
like crafting the materials for that.

So, um, and then it's been really
interesting now being on the network

side, um, all the companies that I
worked for for the past 12 months.

Plus years now are pitching
to me on a weekly basis.

So it's been like a, kind of like
a masterclass in like the do's and

the don'ts and like best practices.

And it's, it's really
been fascinating to see.

And also I look at some of the companies,
I'm like, that's what you're taking out.

And, uh, which is like great.

And it's, uh, it's inspiring for,
uh, people who are independent.

And so, um, I think the first
thing I would do, uh, is like

definitely know who the buyer is.

Like definitely know
what they're looking for.

Look for what their mandate is.

You won't always, as an
independent, uh, like creative,

be able to get that information.

Uh, that's something that if you've got
an agent, The, the agencies kind of take

out to their, uh, to their clientele and
like have that like frequently updated,

but it's a little harder to find.

Um, but once you are able, it sounds
like you've already talked about how to

get, kind of get your foot in the door.

Once you do get your foot in the door,
I think the first thing is to really

know what they're looking for and,
uh, and come with something exciting

is, is the best thing you can do.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Okay,
so that information as far as what

they're looking for, we should have
that before going into the room if

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: If possible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Like, I, had a lot of people show up
because we are a very like boutique

kind of niche network and we are, uh,
BYUtv, you know, we're not going to,

we, we don't have the same person.

That Netflix has, and we're not
going to green light every project

that comes across our desk.

So we've got to be
really excited about it.

I've had a lot of, some of the best
pitches I've had, um, are when people

show up and they just, sometimes if you
get your foot in the door, it's fine

to say, can I just do like a mandate?

Update with you or like get a, get
a a mandate call on the books and,

and usually just take 30 minutes and
just say, what are you looking for?

Is there any, people
ask this question a lot.

Are there any like boxes you're trying
to fill and, 'cause like most networks

we're a bit more of a sandbox where we can
kind of play in a, a lot more spaces as

long as it hits a few like key criteria.

But most networks, you know,
food, they're gonna do food.

HG is gonna do Reno and so.

Uh, you need to kind of know what
they're looking for, but it's

fine to ask for, uh, uh, a mandate
call or like meet about a mandate.

And then even i've had kind of hybrid
meetings where somebody asks Or up front

like can you walk me through the mandate?

I've got a couple things but i'd
love to know what the mandate is And

then they'll say well i've got three
or four They'll say I've got three

or four projects, but, uh, three of
them actually aren't a great fit.

So I'm just going to skip that.

And I very much respect when somebody
respects, like, my time after I've

told them what the mandate is, because
I'll have agents from major agencies.

That'll ask me, uh, for the mandate.

I'll give it to them.

And then they'll say, how
about a paintball gun show?

And I'm like, what about anything
I just said makes you think that

that's a fit and it drives me crazy.

So, um, as, as somebody who's getting
pitched constantly and just has to

go through those, that, that churn
and burn, if you can show up, uh,

With something fresh and also kind of
know what, what I, what I'm looking

for, just like a general direction.

It's, it's helpful, but you
don't always have to know.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

So Luke, I mean, I was in your
office pitching you two weeks

ago or something like that.

And I think for the audience
and for context sake, that's

exactly how our conversation went.

I said, I'm Tell me about
your mandate because we didn't

do it before the meeting.

So we took the first, I don't know,
10 or 15 to get a really good grip

grip or grasp on you're at now.

Cause I'd pitched the network to
you coming on board and it was

a different mandate back then.

So it was nice to get that update.

And then I did the same thing.

I was like, eh, one of them is
probably not for you now that I know.

Right.

And so.

can just, I just wanted to throw that
context in to say, you're not lying to us.

You're not making this up.

Like it's really a fair thing to go
in either knowing the mandate or being

willing to spend some of the time.

If you've got 30 minutes to
meet, maybe don't take too

much time on getting an update.

But you know, I think we had an
hour together and a good chunk of

that was understanding the mandate
and then, um, we'll get into the

pitch, but I think we could even use.

We could put you on the spot and
you can give me feedback on how I

did and everything, but like, um,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Sure.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: I
do think that was extremely helpful

because even as I was pitching, I
could, I could lean into different

parts of the outline or the pitch
that I had prepared, um, knowing that

they were going to hit those marks.

better than other points.

And so there were entire sections I kind
of skipped over and I was like, well,

that's not really relevant anymore.

So we'll just move to the next part.

That is.

And that was really helpful.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

Yeah.

You adapted well too, because like,
like I said, we are, so niche.

It's like you heard things and
then you kind of like picked up on

things and you kind of ask the right
questions to steer that and out how

to weave in like our needs into it.

And, you know, like a Netflix, if you go
to a Netflix or like an Amazon, it's like

different execs are going to be looking
for different things at different times.

And, uh, that is true of all networks.

So it is nice to get kind of a refresh,
but some of these places just, you

know, You could take almost anything
there, uh, depending on, on if you're,

what you're bringing to the table.

But, um, the very, the best
thing, the most exciting pitches

to me are when I feel like, oh,
these guys or gals hear me and.

Have listened and now are like up on
that and saying, Oh, this actually might

work in that space because of X, Y, Z.

And so I think you did that.

Um, just for context, I'll get a
little bit more into like what you

should probably come to the pitch
with and I'll give you Darren some

like a real in real time feedback.

Truth be told, I know Darren and like,
uh, I said, Oh, dude, come on back.

Like I know you pitched forever ago.

And so I kind of just like put them on
the spot and he didn't have a big window.

I would always, always, uh, I would
always come with materials in hand

and you didn't obviously have a deck.

And I probably said,
don't worry about a deck.

Just give us a log line and
a paragraph or whatever.

Um, uh, but I think you're
basically like, you've got one.

One chance of a first impression, right?

I know both of you.

So like, and I trust both of you
and think you're great creators.

So if you come to me, I'm
going to be like, Oh, cool.

I will engage here.

Um, but if I don't know you, like you've
got to win me over pretty quickly.

Um, you don't have a lot of time to do it.

And I'm an easy guy to win over.

I just like people and I like
store I'm a sucker for good story.

So, um, so, uh, when you show up.

Uh, I would try to have a deck in hand.

I would try to have, uh, a deck
that very clearly at the very least

have a one sheet that kind of like
spells out what you're trying to do.

If you can put a deck
together, you should do so.

And that is and words to really
convey what you're trying to sell.

Because that is what you're doing.

You're trying to sell us on spending
a lot of money on your thing.

Um, and get us excited about it and
get us excited about why we should.

so the game has changed quite a bit.

I, uh, used to pay editor, editors, a
lot of money to make a Franken sizzle

or even like an original sizzle.

And I used to pay designers a lot
of money to make decks for me.

And it was obnoxious because
I spent a lot of money as like

an independent contractor.

I don't have a, I don't
have a production company.

Uh, development funds.

And so the game has changed though.

Now you can get on AI and kick
out a bunch of rad AI imagery.

You can get on a place like shot deck
and grab a bunch of like film, like film

or TV stills, and then just like get on
Canva or whatever, whatever software you

want to use and put a rad deck together.

in that deck, so that's
where the feedbacks comes.

Derek, Darren didn't have a
deck, but I knew he wouldn't

have a deck when he showed up.

So do come with that in hand.

Um, and, uh, uh, we have a shorthand.

I, I can, I can take that further down
the road on steps if I like the concept.

Yeah, go

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: What, what
is in that deck then, uh, you know,

are you looking for budgets and cast
and scripts or what, what do you need?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I wouldn't.

I know like you guys are
both indie filmmakers.

And so like the indie film
game is another thing.

So when you're going to investors,
you want them to know like how

much money they have to spend.

And you want them to know like, what
are these comps look like of like,

how do you make your money back?

That's less important for us
because we just want to get

excited about storytelling first.

We, if we love it, we're going to make
it, we're going to find the right partners

or spend the money ourselves to do it.

So if, uh, if we love it,
that's all that needs to happen.

When you're going to like a network
or a streamer, they don't expect you

to have done, you know, like had a,
Line producer or UPM, like do a full

budget already and be like, here's
where every penny is going to be spent

because like a network or a streamer
is going to have a lot of feedback

on what they want that thing to be.

You're going to bring an idea and then
I'm going to say, cool, here's how

we make this right for us, or here's
how we make this the, to my liking

and sensibilities and storytelling.

So that budget you come with
may be totally different.

So you'd be wasting your time.

I would put in the deck, uh,
You're, you're, you have one job

with the deck and that's to get
me excited about the project.

And so you want to come with a
deck that's like full of imagery

and like, and the words that
are going to help me to do that.

I would always start with a title page
and I would have like, tonally, the

images feel like what you're going for.

Kind of the feel and the tone.

I would have that in the, uh, on a title
page with some image in your title.

I'd have a log line and probably
a summary or like a, a summary.

Kind of a brief description of what
the, uh, series is or the film is.

Um, and then you want to kind of get,
like, get into the weeds a little bit.

Who are the characters and why
am I going to care about them?

What are their arcs and story arcs?

And why am I gonna, and what is
the overall like spark arc of

the story you're trying to tell?

Get me excited about that.

And I'm going to be
just all over your deck.

Um, and so I would spend
probably a page to.

pages getting a title, a log line, maybe
three and then like a summary page.

And then I'd spend maybe 10 ish pages
helping me understand the world.

What's the big picture.

Who are the characters?

Break them out for me.

I wouldn't necessarily
do a page per character.

Sometimes there are minor characters
that you can squeeze together.

Um, you can do episode, uh, kind of
breakdowns on, on different pages.

You don't always have to come with
episode breakdowns, but, um, if you do.

Then I can see it really fast.

If you know what the series needs to
be, then I'm going to be like, Oh, wow.

I have had a deck where I'm like,
this is exactly episode for episode.

It was an eight part, uh, limited series.

I'm like, this is exactly
how I would have done this.

And like we moved forward.

Um, but you can have more general.

Uh, big picture, bird's eye overview of
what the story will be, who the characters

will be, how they'll intersect with each
other, and then just like, why do I care?

Like, what is it?

Like, what is, what is
wowing me about that?

And so I wouldn't spend a lot of time on
from the team that brought you X, Y, Z.

I sometimes do that.

If I like partner with big.

And I can use their name to leverage
just a little bit or a show name.

I wouldn't worry so much about that
because really, if you get me sold

on story, I'm going to be pretty
stoked to dive into the materials.

And then on the back end, I would just
probably wrap up with like, um, maybe like

a tone and a feel or like aesthetic, like
what you're going for, like some comps,

types of movie films or like series that
you are trying to, um, Be in the world

of, um, and then just like a contact page,
put your number and your name on there.

And, um, that's it, man.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: That's,
it's encouraging Luke because you,

you, you haven't said anything
that an indie filmmaker and indie

storyteller couldn't come up with.

You know, you haven't said, Hey,
you need to have a showrunner, an

experienced showrunner attached
or a name actor attached.

Um, Which is great.

You know, when I hear that, I think, okay,
well, it's, if it's truly about story,

that's what we do, like, that's, that's
what we, uh, as storytellers, independent

filmmakers, that's what we come up with.

Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: the,
uh, uh, uh, what's that show?

My kid loves where they go to the
nether world and there's our plants

with faces and they're monsters
on these stranger things, things.

Like I'm sure you guys have.

Avatar, Airbender, uh, I'm sure you
guys have looked at that deck, but

there's a great deck that the Duffer
Brothers put out of, and it's just

like, they didn't have anybody attached.

look at Firefest, dude.

Like, those guys went in and just,
like, had a great song and a dance.

Uh, that's all they had.

Nothing other than a song and a
dance, and people spent millions.

Uh, I've heard Cinco, Paul and
Kendario, the guys who do all the Dr.

Seuss movies and created the minions.

I've heard them say, when they first went
in, they rolled the piano in and they

did like musical numbers, even though
like they weren't even part of the thing.

If you can entertain me in
the pitch and get me really

like, Oh, like I'm loving this.

Like that's a, it's a fast way to get me
sold on something and try to get me to

start spending, uh, spending some money on

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: What's also
encouraging, Garrett, along those lines

is, I went to Sundance this last year
and heard Mark Duplass talk about his

indie series that he funded himself

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

Penelope.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Series
are going to Sundance now as indies.

So indie film and indie series
is, they're indistinguishable now.

uh, and you can sell a series to a
Netflix or an Amazon after you take it

to, uh, take it to Sundance or Film Fest
or wherever, or just put it on YouTube.

The Yo Gabba Gabba guys, who I do a lot of
work with, um, they, uh, Uh, they forever

try to get Yo Gabba Gabba off the ground.

First of all, they try
to get the show off the

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: And I
was obsessed with the Aquabats as a

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: um, teenager.

try to get that off the ground for years.

Bobcat, Goldthwait did it, uh, Sizzle.

They just say the story about
that is pretty incredible.

Then they make Gabba.

They just made all these crazy
characters with no mouth, no lip flap.

And just, just like very, like,
like, Not overly stimulating set, but

like very artistic because like they
have a brother who's like a great

artist who like could draw this stuff
and create all these characters.

And Christian, the creator is, is like
a wizard and, and, and his partner.

And so, um, those guys made a sizzle, uh,
actually they made a pilot of a series.

Nobody wanted it.

Everybody passed.

it on.

And I was following the whole thing
cause I was writing an Aquabats

like feature film at the time.

I ended up like writing and directing
some Aquabats super show, like,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Nice.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: like a

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Amazing.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
like commercials.

Um, but, uh, and that was like my
dream job because I was obsessed.

But, um, these guys put it
on YouTube, this whole pilot

and 22 minutes or whatever.

And just, it was magical, instantly viral,
and pretty soon, I'm like, slinging cell

phones in the Glendale Galleria in LA
when I'm trying to write screenplays at

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: and I'm looking
at this thing every day and reading the

comments, and in two days, this thing was
off YouTube, and I'm like, what happened?

Nickelodeon saw that it picked
back up, and they had already

gone through, and they're like,
actually, we do want that thing

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Wow.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: loves,
that we didn't see the vision on.

And so like, there really are unlimited
avenues, I think, in film and in, uh, in

series to like get your stuff out there
and be seen, even if you can't get your

foot in the door at a network streamer.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

Once I've pitched Go ahead, Darren.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Sorry, I feel like I'm laggy over here.

Um, so that brings up a question though,
of like the order of operations or

how, how you prefer things to work.

Cause if I'm going to, put a whole pitch
deck together, do you want that ahead

of time or am I coming into the room and
walking you through slide by slide on

a, a projector, but you know, on a TV
screen, or am I, you have a little booklet

that you're going through one by one?

For me.

The way I like pitching
is very kind of fluid.

And so the idea of a, here's a pitch
deck that I'm going to go through

page by page together, feels arduous,
feels like maybe that's not the

right approach, but, how does someone
coming into a pitch meeting do that?

Are they setting aside five
minutes to go with an overview and

then you dive into it together?

Does it change every time?

Like what's kind of the best
way for us to think about

utilizing that deck in the pitch?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: This
is why your pitch was good

because you had great questions.

Just like that.

Darren.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Oh,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Ooh.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
it's both for me.

It's both.

And that is that it's project dependent
for me on if I am going to pre send it

or if I am going to wait till arrival.

If I feel like I've got the ultimate
like song and a dance that like doesn't

really work without, uh, me being in
the room and really slinging it, I

probably won't send it in advance.

it's, But on the flip, I sometimes try
to gauge interest or get my foot in the

door or whatever, by saying, Hey, is
this something you guys would ever like?

If it's not something that feels like
I'm not there, cause I do feel like

I'm really good at selling and sales.

I don't, I know that not every
project is for everyone and some

projects will never find a home.

So.

For some projects, if I am trying
to be strategic about how I get it

there, I might say, Hey, is this
something that you guys would ever do?

But sometimes like it's my lesser project
where the materials are fun, but it

just helps me like, then talk about
like, get to the next one, you know?

And so I have done that before.

Um, so I think it just totally depends.

I think it's like, if you don't
think you can me excited about

it without you being there.

Uh, then, then show up if, uh, sometimes
you can't get a meeting and sometimes

it's just worth getting materials out
there, um, and saying, Hey, is this ever

something you guys would even consider?

Or is this in your wheelhouse at all?

And, and so I think it just, uh,
I would just feel it out project.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Nice.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Luke,
once, once we've pitched, we say,

hey, you know, okay, I went in, uh,
delivered my, my deck, uh, did the

song and dance, rolled in the piano.

Uh, how do we know That it was a success.

Like what, what's the expectation
that I should walk away

and go, Hey, that was good.

You know, is it a, Oh, they're going
to fund the movie and I'll give me,

they're going to give me a couple
million dollar check or is there a

development fund or how does, what,
what, what is a good positive next step?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah,
I mean, that's all streamer or

network based depending on like what
that, uh, that's those steps look

like for you and those next steps.

The way that I try to look at it is
like, I walk out of there and it's just

like an actor who goes to auditions.

It's like, well, uh, it's done.

It doesn't mean I don't follow up,
but like, I emotionally try to detach

from it because like, the truth be
told, like I've been pitched, I've

been here five years and received
thousands of pitches, good and bad.

And even the like ones that are
in the 99th percentile, like,

Many of those never get made.

It's like, uh, you're, you have to like
do whatever works there at the time.

You've got to do the thing
of getting the exec excited.

And then the exec has to
convince the people spending all

the money to spend the money.

And so like, I let go of all that, or
I try to, I remain hopefully optimistic

and I do due diligence in my followup.

But if I tell you, Hey, this is great.

Like we'd love to like.

Look into like a development step on
this, that's a great sign for you.

Um, a lot of, uh, streamer networks
used to just be like, I love it.

I'll buy it.

Here is $5 million for
the pilot or whatever.

And, uh, that's not really
as much the case anymore.

People are trying to, I mean,
as you know, the industry's in

turmoil, like all the way around.

And so people, uh, and networks
and streamers are being more.

being more careful with
the money they spend.

And it's also like hard to have like a
stinker or like something that you think

is a hit and nobody finds it or the
algorithm doesn't push it or whatever.

And so, uh, yeah.

After you leave, like regardless of what
happens, I would always follow up with

an email and just be like, Hey, and if
there's materials, additional materials

sent over, that's a time to send those.

Thanks so much.

That was so great.

Like diving in and really
learning what you guys are all

about and what you're up to.

I love what you're up to.

And I, uh, I hope we can find
something to figure out to do together.

And then, um, don't be
annoying after that.

There is like squeaky
wheel, like it's the grease.

And there's also like squeaky wheel
is so, uh, greasy or squeaky wheel.

So squeaky that I replaced the wheel
eventually, you know what I mean?

And so like, it's a, it's a fine line.

Cause I do have a, uh, a guy who's
a brilliant salesman who sold me a

series, uh, or sold a series recently
that, and he's a dear friend.

So I feel like he'll be fine
with me saying this, uh, who

was, He was very squeaky.

And at times it's like, I'm trying
to do notes on my cuts and scripts.

And anyways, it's just like, you
do, you do just want to be, you

want them to remember you, but
also not be annoying to them.

And this guy wasn't doing that.

This guy is, but there have
been people who do that.

There are people who up, uh, two
days later, Hey, do you get a

chance to read those materials?

It's like, This is two weeks out at least
before I probably even see this thing and,

uh, and I want to talk about it with my
team and I want to review and I want to

digest and I want to look at it properly.

So, um, yeah, I'd say like, give it
three weeks, drop them a line and

be like, Hey, just checking to see
if you had a chance to check it out.

Um, and then if they don't
respond, give them more time.

If they do respond and say,
Hey, sorry, I've been so busy.

That's usually what the response is.

Always, um, give them a month, give them
two months and just like, them you're

there, but don't drive them crazy.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Uh,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: I want
to actually go back a step because when

you're in the pitch, um, how, you know,
I don't know if you always set aside an

hour or you always set aside 30 minutes
or if it's kind of project dependent.

Um, but how do you like
that time to be used?

Do you want them to pitch for 20
percent and then converse about

it and kind of jam on it for 80%?

Cause I'll give my side of it.

That's what I prefer.

Because I want to know if the,
the big idea is resonating at all.

And if it is, let's jam on it to
see if I want to work with you too.

Like what, what's it going to be like
to work with the development exec?

What kind of ideas are
you coming back with?

Does it, do I feel like it
pluses the project or is like,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: And

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: I'm
kind of using the balance of the time.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: um,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
would be like to work with and

to experience what you would be
like, uh, representing the network.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: um,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
in, uh, in when you've been

on our side of the pitching?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
I think you nailed it.

E.

Exactly.

Darren.

I think it is like for me, because I am a
sucker for good story, I'm going to latch

onto the things that are exciting about
the story you're bringing me, or I'm going

to be like, huh, what if this was this
and that might work for a network and.

It's helpful.

You don't want to pitch the whole
time and then be like, see you later.

Because it is, it's
like, it's what you said.

It's like, I'm going to see what
you would be like as a partner.

You're going to see if I'm going
to be in a, uh, an exec that

you hate and, uh, it's possible.

Um, but I'm going to see like how.

you take notes, because most of my
job is giving notes on your creative

and sculpting that creative from,
uh, top level to make it, uh, the

needs of what, uh, we need here, uh,
or anywhere that's wherever you go.

And so, That is an important time
for me to have that time to chat,

to throw ideas your way or say,
what if, and then see how you react.

And then I'm like, Oh, okay, this
guy not only can take a note,

but he also can plus a note.

Like he can take something that
I said and then make a pivot

that I might not have thought of.

And that's exciting to me
when I see that somebody.

And it registers and it's like, Oh, but
also, and then we get excited together.

That's the best, the very best, uh,
meeting you can be in, uh, in a pitch

is like, we're like, it feels like I'm
there creating it with you in the moment.

And if you can trick me into
doing that, then you win, because.

I'm going to be like, yes.

And then, uh, yeah.

Oh, and then this, and, and
then, uh, you just sit back

and be like, yeah, here we go.

This is great.

So, and there have been very few pitches
that have done that and, uh, it's rare.

And if you find the right thing
and the right exec and, and, uh,

and get them excited and do the, do
all the steps, then, then you might

just like mix some magic together

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
That's awesome to hear.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Luke, you've
been super generous with your time.

Uh, any, you know, maybe, maybe
you've got time for one more question,

uh, unless you want to hang out
with us for, for longer, but, um,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: all

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
all day, right?

Hang on there.

Listener.

He's with us still.

Uh,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: First time,
very long time we've been on this call.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
So, any, you're a storyteller.

I know you as an incredible storyteller.

Any great success stories or, uh, horror
stories of pitches gone well or pitches

gone terribly that you'd want to end with?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I think,
I think it's harder for me to talk

about some of the ones that have gone
really well, because we're probably

in like active development on the
ones that have like gone really well.

And, uh, they're not quite there yet,
but maybe we could do a follow up and

I could like tell you like the, this.

Um, because there have been a couple
of pitches recently that, uh, that I

just, it was that I was obsessed and

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Really?

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
they brought a thing to me.

I mean, page two of one of them.

I'm like, is this that
that no, like it is.

And I was like, man, you
could not have brought me.

Me personally, something
more exciting because I knew

right where they were going.

Um, and so, uh, there have
been a couple of those.

I, I think on like the good,
the best version of pitches, I

would just be very strategic.

Like this is a relationship business.

Don't worry.

I get this a lot.

And I guess this is kind
of the good and the bad.

I'll tell you what I
do and what I've seen.

I have people who are so anxious to
just the thing to me or like get the

information out that they don't stop
to like do the relationship part of

it or do the engagement part of it.

And that's really important.

And so on some of the things that I
do, like on like independent projects

or whatever, uh, before I came here.

I, uh, I mean, I would have a long game
of like 12 months sometimes before I

even tried to set up a thing because I
would have these touch points, you know,

you guys talked about that sales process
and how to get your foot in the door.

And actually, while I was trying to
get in film and TV, I was doing sales

and marketing for like 10 years.

And so.

The more you can learn how to sell
well, the better you're going to be.

And it is relationships
and don't rush that.

Like take the time to have the person
on your side when you arrive and have

them excited to see you, if you can.

Um, don't worry so much about like,
Oh my gosh, I got this, my first

pitch and, and then just blow it.

I, I mean, uh, Uh, and
then just like be fluid.

Like you said, Darren, be like,
some improv classes, right?

Garrett, that'll, there's

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yes, and

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: you more in
life improv classes and, uh, and also

read some sales books and read, uh,
read, uh, the Deplass brothers book

about like filmmaking and, and whatever,
just like get into the mindset of

what it just means to go out and find
people cause all really anybody wants

to do is make cool things with people.

They like, that's all anyone wants to do.

My job isn't like some, like here's
a stamp of approval, green light.

Like that sounds like a miserable job.

My job is to get in the weeds
and the creative with you guys

and just be like, This is awesome
and like get excited together.

And so that's what you want to approach
it as of think of that end goal of like

someone that you should want to get
really excited together about a thing.

Um, some bad, some don'ts.

Uh, I've seen a couple, uh, a dude
brought a hundred page deck to us once.

Uh, and I'm just, and I thought, you
know, And what you said, Darren, earlier,

they read every, uh, block of text to us.

And I'm like, I scroll forward.

I was like, how long is this?

I, and, it was truly like 97
And I was like, what is this?

Like my head exploded because
I'm like, did these guys even get

this meeting through their agency?

Um, and there was a big agency.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: I shared
that exact story last week on me

bringing a deck that was super long
and the executives were just like,

after page seven, like, okay, see,
let's talk about where we're going.

So,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I think,
I think it, I think 12 to 20 is the

sweet spot, like on page number.

I know some people will
tell you to do less.

I think to get like,
here's what I would say.

Do as much as you can with as little as
you can and like, and look, is anything

fluff or excess that I can cut away here?

Um, I used to, I used to do decks that
were like five to seven and that was fine.

Now I do like to like dive
into story a little bit more.

At least I like to see stuff
that's a little bit more.

So my decks would usually be about 10 to
10 to 20 pages depending on the project.

and then another thing like
this is a very dear friend.

So I'm going to share the story
and not tell you it was, but, uh,

I go to like a filmmaker summit.

And this friend, he's in, I mean,
he's a genius, he's a creative genius

and, uh, he's actually somebody
that I'm really interested in

doing a lot of exciting stuff with.

And so let me preface it with that.

But the dude did have like a
hundred page deck and not only

did I have a hundred page deck.

Well, first he brings out this
giant, like it was like a sci fi

thing and like a small town sci
fi thing and like a period piece.

And he brings out this crate.

And it's like, it's got
all these props in it.

And we're like, this is awesome.

It's got like a top secret government,
everything in like, Hey, and like, this

crate had been like discovered somewhere.

I'm like, this is fun.

This is that song and dance
that's rolling the piano in.

But then in addition to that, he
had this hundred page deck and

it was like all over the place.

It was like.

This page is like the recipe page that
you've seen a lot of decks of take a

pinch of this and a fourth cup of that.

And it's like, I've done that
in food shows before, but this

was for a sci fi like series.

And, um, and he had, we may need to
cut some of this out because now I'm

starting to roast his deck, but I do, I
I'm obsessed with this guy's brain and I

want to make a hundred projects with this

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: yeah,

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Um, and he's a friend.

And so maybe I'll say,
Hey, I, Maybe roast,

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446:
we talked you up on our show.

We can do that.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: But, but,
uh, but, and so anyway, it just

like, it didn't have the fluidity.

It did not have like the consistent tone
and feel it like jumped like tonally

and it jumped to different vibes.

And like, and it also just like, it's
like, well, what are we reading by now?

Just give me like
everything I need to know.

And then just like, let's chat
through it and talk about it.

And, uh, that's.

the best way you can do it.

But like, if you got a fun crate,
like this, uh, this dude, I will

tell you, like, I'm developing
something else with them here.

And he's like, I want to
do a leather bound book.

I'm like, that is awesome.

Um, I'm like, I don't need it because
like, all I need is the PDF to review.

Um, Uh, but like, I do think that would
be awesome to hand to someone because

there's something about a tactile thing
when you, when you show up, I don't

think it's necessary, but like, it's the
little things in life, you know, and if

you can wow someone in another way, you
can actually like, do a little bit of

the balancing of like, if your story's
not quite all there yet, you can do more

heavy lifting with, with something, but
it's gotta be like appropriate for the

project that made complete sense that
this like governmental alien, whatever

he showed up with like this box that

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446:
uh, had been recovered.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: That's

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Fun, man.

What a cool, what a, yeah,
what a, what an amazing job you

have and you're so good at it.

And, uh, uh, it's fun to see your shows
and, and the outcome of, you know, you

can always see kind of Luke's fingerprints
in different things and I love it.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Thanks buddy.

I appreciate that.

You guys are rad.

And, uh, I'm excited to, uh,

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446:
Thanks, man.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: like
share and subscribe to this

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yes, please.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: I hope
everyone is ending that bell.

then, uh, and then also like, uh, I'm,
uh, I love both you guys and I'm excited

to see all this stuff that comes out of
your brains in the next many, many years.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: Okay, man.

Um, very cool.

I appreciate you joining us.

Thanks so much.

luke_2_11-26-2024_141446: Yeah, guys.

Cheers.

garrett_2_11-26-2024_141446: All
right, Darren, you're going to leave.

daren-smith_2_11-26-2024_141446: so.