S2 EP16 | Demystifying Marketing for Indie Films with Expert Jonas Barnes
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
I've got unlimited options on
streaming of what to watch.
Oh, well, let me go with the stuff that's
already kind of has a stamp of approval.
If it's on a certain streamer, if
there's brand partners involved, if
there's an actor that I've known and
watched before that I liked, those
things just make it easier to make
that decision, whether it be buying
a ticket to go see it in theaters or
take the time to watch it on streaming.
This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by
documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.
Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you
on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the
process and answer your questions.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
All right.
Oh my gosh.
Welcome everybody.
We have a very exciting
guest with us today.
I met Jonas on the internet.
We met on LinkedIn and connected there.
And I'm just going to call that out
every time we have a guest that I
met on LinkedIn, because I want to
get all the filmmakers on LinkedIn.
It's just such a cool place.
We kind of,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
it's really a great avenue.
It's like, it's my total social media
too, because there's not a lot of
politics and other nonsense on there yet.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
you know,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
I'm in the same boat.
Well, let me give you a
bit of an intro, Jonas.
So people understand why I'm so
excited to chat with you today.
Why we're so excited
to chat with you today.
25 years in the film industry worked
with many of the major studios, both
in development and physical production.
You've been a producer in the past.
You shifted to marketing
in 2023 during the strikes.
And that's what we're talking about today.
And we, I love your ethos about
marketing for indie films.
So maybe we could start there.
Tell us a little bit about.
Why are we inviting someone who
works with studios to talk to us?
Indie filmmakers about
how to do marketing.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: well,
you know, I mean, for a long time, I've
looked at the indie film market and,
you know, there's certain things we
just do in, in, in the bigger films,
bigger film market, you know, for the
studios, that I've always wondered why
wasn't it applied to indie filmmaking.
Um, and you know, the part of the
reason is, is that it's a real
struggle to get an indie film made.
It's a struggle to get any movie made,
but uh, indie filmmakers are mostly
just focused on like how to get their
movies financed and into a movie theater.
you know, one of the big pieces that
I think not just indie filmmakers,
but business people in general forget
is they think making a great product
will bring an audience and, you
know, they forget that marketing is
pretty much half of any business you
know, film business is a business.
know, that needs like, you know, 50
percent of it to be marketing basically.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
It's such a wake up call, uh, I
think, to an independent filmmaker.
To hear you say that is so, it
verbalizes that wake up call moment
of like, you know, I remember making
my first film, like I made a movie now
people are just going to come see it
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: Right.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
there is no, uh, field of dreams.
If you build it, they will come
scenario with independent film.
Like I, it's a, it's a matter of then
making the movie and then repeating
the process for marketing, right?
Just begging people to see it.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: I think
that indie filmmakers also think that the
distributors are going to take over and
just market the heck out of their movie.
Right.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
You mean they won't.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
well, a lot of times you're selling
your movie to a foreign sales company
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Right.
Right.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
has, who puts a few deals in place and
you know, they're taking 10 to 15%.
So like they really don't
have a lot of skin in the game
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: it comes
to like what, you know, the movie doing
well in theaters, so on and so forth.
you know, also like, uh, uh, it's,
it's so hard to get that place.
You know, you're so
focused on that one piece.
That
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: about
the other stuff, you know, but there's
so many like simple and then also
everybody thinks it's super expensive
Right, they focus on like these large
pna funds from like, you know, 20 years
ago today in today's marketplace you
can get to the consumer fairly easily
And especially you have a niche movie,
you can get to the consumer super
easily through Reddit, through TikTok,
through Instagram, through LinkedIn.
get to, you can get to the, you're
basically the person you want to
watch your film and make aware
of your film very easily and at a
pretty, at a much lower cost than,
you know, the 50 to a hundred million
dollars that you still have to spend.
To get a movie, you know,
get awareness up on a movie.
So, I
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: So
what we're really excited about is,
you know, kind of continuing the
conversation today about marketing
and what are some of the strategies?
Like, let's get into the
weeds on some of this stuff.
What are the things that Indies could
and should learn from the studios?
But I, I want to touch initially
on something that you and I talked
about last week, which is like, how
early in the conversation should
you start talking about marketing?
Maybe we start there.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
mean, I, we talk about it
before we even at original film.
We talk about it before we even
like take it into the buyer.
We make it a very first part of the
conversation of who is this movie for.
Right.
And right.
Is this something that that audience
is going to like connect with easily?
It is, there's something
we need to adjust.
In order to make it for that, that
specific audience and we, and I find
it's best to look original film makes
four quadrant movies, meaning they play,
they play for basically everybody, moms,
dads, kids, adults over 25 under 25.
But when we looked at it, we looked at it
like targeting an audience, women under
25, we'll come and watch this movie.
And then we just hammer it for them make
the best movie possible so that we know
that we have them as a core audience.
Um, that's the number one thought process.
And then the number two is I find it
crazy that people don't make a poster,
you know, a post in this day and age, you
have to have something eye catching to
grab the audience's attention and being
able to convey your movie in a single
image without the movie star in it.
Um, you know, I think it's super, super
important and it kind of guides the rest
of the movie and it guides the marketing
later on if you know what you're doing.
So,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
So let me understand.
So for an independent
filmmaker, I've got an idea.
I need to start looking
at who the audience is.
And then you're saying before
I've been cast, should put
effort into creating a poster.
Okay.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: me,
look, I don't want you to spend a billion
dollars creating a poster, but what I'm
saying is, is that, you know, what, what
I find wild is that like, I get, I just
had a company come to me the other day and
they had a 5 million spend on the movie.
Okay.
And they didn't put five grand
into making a poster ahead of time.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Okay.
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
when you're on set, is it a great
time to make a poster because you
have the physical actors there on the
stage on, you know, on the set, in
costume, in makeup, you have lights.
A lot of people aren't shooting their
poster right then and there too.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
opportunity to do it, right?
are waiting till well after that, you
know, we're finally into the sales mode.
And then they're handing
in that, that, that
that piece off to a distribution company.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
And you are one of 50 movies a lot
of times in, um, independent film.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: I mean?
Like you are not like, you would
like to think your movie is the
only one there, but like they're
selling you almost like as a package
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
A lot of times, depending on
the size of your movie, right?
So like having that image and being
able to hand it off and go, no, this
is what my movie is as a filmmaker.
I think that's extremely important
because that's the first thing your
audience is generally going to see.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
Is that one single image, know,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Jonas.
And yeah, what a great, uh,
great insight to say, Good luck.
You're right there.
You have everything there at least
get a poster, even before your actors.
Let's get a poster, just
some sort of teaser art.
Uh, and it's something I guess I've seen.
I mean, I grew up at movie theaters and
I loved like these teaser posters that
would come before the movies even shot
and we get like just a Batman logo.
You know, the black and black and
yellow Batman logo for Tim Burton's,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Hmm.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Michael Keaton Batman.
thought, I don't know what this movie
is, but this poster has me intrigued.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
It has me intrigued.
And when the next one comes,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010: Yes.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
Oh, I got now I got, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, look, you know, marketing
itself is, I think, I forget
what the touch points are.
I think it's seven touch points, In
order to get somebody to buy a product.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
And that's the other thing.
Everybody's waiting to the like last
two weeks of, of marketing their film.
You know, it's when, when you can
start now, you can start with, Hey
guys, we just got financed, you know,
I'm going to do like a kind of BTS
for you of what it's like trying
to get this movie off the ground.
You're connecting with your audience,
and you're helping your audience
find each other too, and connect,
and, and, and get behind you.
So by the time your movie comes,
You know, just like with that Batman
poster, you're already like, Oh,
I saw this Batman poster first.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
I shared it with my friends.
You know what I mean?
You're letting the audience
kind of work for you.
You know, uh, you brought up
Sonic the Hedgehog earlier before
this call, you know, like the
Sonic community is sharing stuff.
They're doing part of the marketing
for Sega and for Paramount by
sharing it with each other and
coming up with different ideas.
And I mean, there's fan art and all this
other fun stuff that happens around, you
know, a big lively character like that.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Jonas.
Is there, is there a, uh, any concern
about like what not to share or like,
you know, oversharing I sometimes
I get, uh, fatigued by buddies that
are like making films and you know,
everything is like either you can tell
it's like underdeveloped key art or
underdeveloped teaser art and you go
like, wait, that might be hurting the
image of the movie or everything's like,
Hey, we're getting ready to film in.
Eight months.
And then nothing ever happens.
And you're like, come on guys.
Like in reality.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
nothing ever happens.
Part is a good thing.
You don't want to do that.
Right.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
I'm talking like, know, you're
going to go, you know what I mean?
Like the key art should be the original
like temp poster, let's call it.
Should be something that you're sharing
with friends family and investors
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
to get them excited and to kind
of test the water with it get real
feedback on what that poster is.
Maybe you're doing two or three of them
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Okay.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
mean, in this day and age with A.
I.
And you can send something off to India to
have a kid do over there that's happy to
do it for, you know, five bucks an hour.
Right.
It's maybe not as you're not your
final poster, but it's something that
you can put together to start getting
people's concepts and ideas going and
and and seeing getting their reactions.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: Right,
because something like I think is cool
might not connect with the audience.
You know?
I mean, have you ever had like a, a,
a, like a, you know, a post that you
went, went kind of wild and you're like,
were really excited about that post.
And then another post you do
that you've like put hours into
and it just death, just zero,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Silence.
Radio silence.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
You know, the audience figures, the
audience figures what they want, right?
We're in, we're partially what
we're trying to do is figure out
what connects with the audience.
You know, um, uh, one of the companies
I work for that is a, is a bigger
company that does, um, viral marketing.
It's a creative name branded
bomb and he a B tests his ads.
Meaning he makes an ad a smaller version
of the ad puts it on a separate channel
if it does well and then when a client
comes along mastercard or whoever
comes along He goes this is something
I already got like 5 million views on
let's do the bigger version of this
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
Put it out and then it gets 150
million views and everybody goes.
Oh, he's a genius I'm, like no, he
just tested like 15 ideas, right?
and took the best one.
And that's what's great
about the internet.
And that's what's great about
social media is that you can
kind of put stuff out there.
And yes, as long as you're not your buddy,
that's putting something out there that's
not really actually going to happen.
You know what I mean?
Like,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
credibility to it.
Also, know, in this day and age,
people love seeing people kind of go,
don't know if that is that, that good.
You know, everybody has this
kind of weird bravado about them.
Like they have to be always right.
I'm the only guy who seems
to figure out that I'm wrong.
90 percent of the time.
Right?
And then that 10%, that's
when the magic happens.
And I'm like, know, so.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Well,
I think it makes sense to, to avoid
what you're talking about, Garrett
of like, Oh, what if it actually is
hurting the film, having a, like a
cohort or a brain trust or a mastermind
of like trusted friends that will give
you good feedback and honest feedback
of like, Oh, I wouldn't post that.
I can think of a filmmaker.
He keeps putting out AI generated
scenes and shots and posters.
And you're like, dude, this isn't it.
Like.
I wouldn't be posting those things.
He never asked me for my
opinion, so I don't share it.
But you and I obviously
together could be doing that.
But also we've got so many people in
this community that we could just say,
Hey, will you take a look at this?
Give me your feedback
before I post it online.
And that one extra step will probably
save you that risk of, uh, hurting
your brand rather than helping it.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
I think there's a lot of value
in asking, like, is this going
to create market confusion when
I released the final product?
If this key order poster isn't in line
with the brand that I'm trying to release.
You know, if it is an AI generated
thing and it looks like an animated
movie, but really it's a live action,
something else, uh, yeah, then you're,
I think you're digging yourself
a little bit of a hole, you know?
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
Yes and no.
I mean, talk about Sonic again.
don't know if you guys remember the
reaction to the first Sonic trailer
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: out.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
you know, obviously we took a
step back and, and, uh, you know,
put in, re did Sonic basically.
Right?
To look more like the character
that's in the video game.
You know,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
yeah,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
some of that can be like taking
in that negative feedback can be a
good thing sometimes, you know, but
yeah, you don't want to overdo it.
You don't want to do
too much AI, you know,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
yeah,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
stuff wall type of thing.
Um, it, you know, part of
my job is, is very much.
being able to focus, um, and put out
stuff that I think is going to do
well and then amplify that that stuff,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Yeah,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: right?
Um,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
it makes sense.
Yeah.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: that you
said, though, that I think is a really
interesting takeaway for indie filmmakers
is this idea of, you know, the Superman
poster in, in a theater a year before,
before the movie even started production,
they're like, promoting the movie because
they know it's coming out summer of 2027.
Right?
So there's There's an image of a Batman
logo or a Superman logo or whatever it is.
And indie filmmakers don't really do that.
You know, we're not posting something
when we're greenlit and we're
not posting something beforehand.
Cause we're so nervous about
stuff getting out about behind
the scenes photos or whatever.
And it's like, man, we're so small.
Like we really shouldn't be worried
about our stuff leaking on the internet.
It would actually be a good thing.
Cause that's free earned
market earned media.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: right.
I
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
But the idea of.
Yeah, coming 2026, coming 2025 and
having a teaser and setting up.
And so that actually transitions or
takes us to the next question we wanted
to talk about is like, when you're
early in the process with marketing,
what does the marketing look like?
Because you're not
saying get your tickets.
You're not saying click here
to find your theater, right?
So what are you actually doing?
Telling people to do what's the
action you're getting them to take.
And what's the kind of outcome
that you're driving towards?
Is it awareness?
Is it leads and email subscribers
and people you can contact?
Like, how are you looking at that
in the early stages, whether it's
pre production production or post
before you're into distribution mode?
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
mean, look, the first thing is
always awareness for me, right?
It's it's hard to get somebody to go to a
movie if they don't know what it exists.
So that's that's number one.
Um, I I feel that awareness is
pretty much pretty up until the
movie is ready to get released.
You know, thing with Superman, as
you just mentioned, Superman can
pick a date, June 21st, 2026, and
they make the deal with the movie
theaters and they lock down that date.
And for the most part, unless
another movie goes on to that
date, they'll keep that date.
Right.
And that's part of the reason
they're announcing it too, is they're
saying, no, no, June 21st is us.
Everybody else go away.
As any filmmakers, a lot of times,
you know, you're not, you don't
get to know when your movie's
coming out that far in advance.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: We know
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: yeah.
So what you want to do is build
awareness and build excitement
around it, you know, um, and build
a community around the films.
Um, and, you know, part of what, uh, I've
seen super successful is when people pick
a niche or a genre that they're really
connected to, you know, and that can
help you build more of a community it.
A24, whose movies I'm not crazy
about, built the most amazing
community around their films.
I would never go watch one, but I
get why people connect with that.
And it's less about the movie at
this point now for them and more
about their community of people
and people wear the hat t shirts
and like, it just says a 24 on it.
And they go support the movies, no
matter what, what the movie's about.
Does it have a good hook?
Does it, all the posters pretty much
look the same, the shop all the same.
You know, so, um, uh, that's an amazing
way to do kind of an awareness around
things is just build a community.
That's going to support it.
Then last, the last part is, yes,
how do we get people into theaters?
And as an indie filmmaker, you're also
probably not going to be in 5, 000
theaters, so you're probably going to be
in, I don't know, I mean, I babysitter
wanted, which was my movie from 400
years ago was in 29 theaters, right?
Did extraordinarily well in those 29
theaters, but it was in 29 years now.
But that also means I
don't have to go target.
You know, the whole world, I have
to target those specific locations
make sure that everybody in that
area really knows it's aware of it.
And then on top of that, make it
kind of feel worldwide later on
when we're doing the, you know,
the DVD and streaming sales.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
What are some, what are some things?
So, uh, kind of a case study.
We've just released our films in theaters.
Uh, Darren and I did two films
last year and we are now preparing
them for a streaming release.
Uh, so, so we do have, I mean,
essentially anybody anywhere
in the country or in the world.
It's going to be able to
log on and stream the movie.
What are, are there things that
we can be doing right now as indie
filmmakers to help create awareness
or fire the, you know, fan the
flame this, once these movies come
out here in a couple of months?
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
It's funny.
I've been approached by a number of indie
studios that have, I don't know where
your guys are streaming it on, uh, but
for example, one of them was on a Hulu,
they have a successful TV show on Hulu.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: And
they approached me saying like, we, Hulu
doesn't do any marketing for our show.
Like it could be reaching
a much larger audience.
so they are doing their own,
they, they approached me about
doing marketing for them to help
build awareness around their show.
And it's going to be very targeted
marketing because the show is
for basically for teenage girls.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: So,
you know, but also, um, for that show,
I was able to land a brand partner,
which helped with finance, um, a
good portion of the marketing, right?
Um, so depending on what your movie's
about, depending on, you know,
sometimes you can find a brand partner.
And what's great about that port
of it is the brand partners really
like stuff that's already finished.
They don't want to, they
don't want to guess.
you know, if, if you have a movie
that aligns with a certain type of
brand, usually easier to approach
and they want to do some sort of
collaboration and that could, that
collaboration can be a number of things,
you know, can be a real life event.
It can be, um, which basically you're
making to get digital footage of.
So you can share that around the world.
Um, it can be a digital ad that, you
know, you're putting on, like I do
the organic, uh, ads travel well.
you know, across Tiktok and
Instagram and different platforms,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: uh,
or it can just be, uh, you know, a spend
of some sort, but nice is when you align
with the brand, that brand already brings
a certain audience with it too, right?
And that audience hopefully
will translate to your audience,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Okay.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: So it's,
it's twofold people, people look at the
brand money and they're just like money.
really what you're looking at is let's
say you have coca cola sign on as your
brand coca cola is known everywhere I
don't have to explain what coca cola is
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: Yep,
it has such a high brand awareness in
the world that now it gives credibility
to your movie And makes people
go, Oh, if Coca Cola is involved,
there must be something of quality,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: right?
So,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
it legitimizes it a little bit.
And that's it.
That's a thing for a lot of people who
are considering like, I've got unlimited
options on streaming of what to watch.
Oh, well, let me go with the stuff that's
already kind of has a stamp of approval.
If it's on a certain streamer, if
there's brand partners involved, if
there's an actor that I've known and
watched before that I liked, those
things just make it easier to make
that decision, whether it be buying
a ticket to go see it in theaters or
take the time to watch it on streaming.
So that's interesting.
Um, So Jonas, we're, we're talking to
about the, the marketing period, like
that's typical for any filmmakers where
they kind of think of like the couple of
weeks before their movie hits theaters.
And it's, it's complete freak out time
because you're so uncertain as to like, is
this money we're about to spend going to
translate into people buying a ticket and
going and seeing our movie in theaters.
Cause that's where it all like,
that's where the rubber hits the road.
They have to buy tickets.
They have to go to the theater and see it.
Or else our movie doesn't make money.
So any thoughts there about how to
maximize audience buying tickets,
even on an extremely limited budget?
You know, you talked about that at
the top of the show, but like talking
about limited budget, where does
your head go even with, you know,
studios are probably overspending.
So what should they be doing?
What should we as indie filmmakers
be doing in that kind of ramp
up to the opening weekend?
Mm hmm.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
You know, it's surprising.
The studios, actually, I get a lot of
studios coming to me at the 11th hour.
Uh, they've already blown most of
their budget on traditional marketing.
So traditional studio marketing is, you
know, print ads, uh, billboards, Uh, you
know, you make a 30 second trailer and you
play it on CBS nonstop, Um, you know, or
ESPN or wherever you think it's going to
get the most traction for your audience.
Um, you know, and, and a lot of that stuff
really isn't working as well anymore.
Um, I don't want to say it's not working
at all, but like, um, you know, what I
do for them is I generally try to put
together a viral event in that case
that draws attention to the movie.
It's generally a lower cost thing.
It depends on what you're doing,
of course, but I can generally do
multiple things very low money will
get a high awareness about the movie.
Um, and also, if you do it right,
you're doing something where it kind
of sparks intrigue into the film.
And makes people go, Oh, cool.
I want to go see what that film is about.
Right.
Um, you know, and, uh, I think you and I
talked, I've talked about this before, but
like, you know, my job really is to just
get people to walk in the movie theater.
And buy a ticket your movie.
it.
That's my whole job.
It's not to explain what your movie's
about It's not that's your job.
Your job is to make a good movie My
job is to get the people to go into the
movie theater, you know And sometimes
that is is sharing a lot of the film.
Sometimes it's sharing very little of
the film um, and if you've walked through
the marketing process properly the
movie, you have certain moments that are
marketable and shareable moments, right?
Um, uh, you know, 1 example that
really, really was like, uh,
kind of stark stood out for me.
We did a movie called
triple X with Vin Diesel,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: That's
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
and in the original triple X movie,
there is a, um, an avalanche scene.
And it was a super expensive
scene to shoot at the time.
Snow.
I don't know how much snow
costs now, but at the time, snow
was super hard to do with CGI.
It just looked wonky if you did it poorly.
So it was super, super expensive
and the studio wanted to cut it.
And, uh, um, Neil Ritz, who's my
mentor and the head of the company
said, this is the thing that gets
people to go into the movie theater.
This one shot.
Well, this is our end of our trailer.
This is our shot.
And sure enough, that's
the end of the trailer.
That's the big shot at the end of it that
makes you go, Oh wow, I gotta go see that.
Right?
You know, that should be planned out
kind of in your, in your film as well.
So that by the time you get to
that two weeks out, you have that
thing, you have that card to play.
And in, in your marketing and there's
something once again, most filmmakers,
not just in the indie world, I would
say overall, don't think about,
they don't think about it or what
is called a trailer moment, right?
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: story
and characters and all this, all that is
very super, super important, but sell in
terms of selling movie, what's that thing.
We call it a hook.
That's going to get drive audience.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
Fascinating.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: sorry.
Was that as I did?
I
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: amazing.
Like I'm just sitting here trying
to just integrate it into my brain.
So I take everything you said
and apply it to the next movie.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
And, and for what it's worth, I remember
that shot in the trailer of a triple X.
I remember the Vin Diesel
riding, uh, some sort of
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Snowball.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010: hood
of a car or something like that, you know?
Yeah.
Or yeah.
Snowboard or whatever it is.
Uh, very cool.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
it feels a little mercenary,
I think, to filmmakers.
Which is another reason they don't do it,
But at the end of the day, when you're
standing there and you just want people
to watch your movie as a filmmaker,
forget about the money aspect of it.
You know, as a filmmaker, somebody
who's made movies and put them
into movie theater, you just want
people to watch it, you know?
And I'm even someone who, like,
I don't care if you hate it or
not, as long as you watched it!
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
I want the feedback, I want all
of it, I wanna, you know, I want,
you know, you know what I mean?
I just want people to, to actively go out
to the movie theater and, and watch it.
And then later on, Oh, maybe I'll
watch it on streaming or maybe
I'll watch it on whatever channel.
So, you know, it's, it's an, it's,
it's an important part of the process
that, I think it's overlooked a
lot, but it also is the reason like,
you know, original films, movies,
I would say half of movies fail.
Original film is up in the 80,
80 percent success rate of films.
I've never seen one
not at least break even
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010: Wow.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
the reason is because there's
something to market always
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
the movie's not made right?
then that's the simple fact is
like You don't know if the movie's
going to turn out well or not.
The actor might do this the
cinematographer might do that You know,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
sure.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
lose a day or two because it's snowing
or uh, I mean I was on a movie once
where uh, the camera froze literally
the camera froze because the weather
dropped like You know, the batteries
froze, I think, on the camera.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: You
know, and like we're sitting around for
hours trying to warm up the batteries.
I, I would assume they just would warm up,
but no, you know, sitting on the thing.
There's a bunch of things you
can't control, but what you can
control is how you're going to
sell it at the end of the day.
Right,
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
it's brilliant.
Yeah.
I mean, it's easy to do as
an indie filmmaker to start
thinking about that marketing.
What are these trailer moments?
And, you know, the comment is it
may sound mercenary or anything,
but I think you're I mean, I think
you're right to bring that up.
And, uh, I mean, at the end of the day,
the space we're trying to play in, right?
An independent filmmaker is going to
walk into a place, a movie theater, Yeah.
That's whole businesses
to make money on movies.
So you have to be in that mindset
of how am I going to make this
product serve their purpose?
And yeah, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's
a cool mindset to kind of help be it.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: By the
way, that's also the mercenary parts.
Why people hire me?
Because they're like, I
don't want to do that piece.
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
You do that.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
I don't like how that feels.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
I'm okay with that.
That's a, that's why, uh, you know,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Well,
I mean, just the idea that you've got to
have somebody that's thinking about it.
And if it's not you, if that's not
your expertise or your background or
it doesn't feel like what you want
to be spending your time on, then you
definitely need to set aside budget and
time and have someone who's going to
run that for you because it's essential.
And we've learned that.
We feel that.
And it just it's something
that keeps getting repeated
over and over by filmmakers who
are doing it at a high level.
Like marketing's half of
the battle here, guys.
And if you're not thinking about it
until the movie's done and you're
a few months out, that's too late.
Like you missed the opportunity
starting earlier and building that
audience, building that community,
building up the desire for the
film that gets people to go see it.
So, man, oh man, Jonas, you've
been awesome to have on our show.
I want to be respectful of your time.
I know you got big calls today later on.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: it.
Yes.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Um,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: one.
Yes.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: Is there
like, where can people learn about you
if they want to try to hire a mercenary?
Like, do you have hire a mercenary.
com?
Like
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
follow me on LinkedIn.
Jonas Barnes.
I think it's Jonas Barnes
producer or something like that
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
uh, or my company, original film.
Um, I also have a, um, a consulting
company called dragon shark.
That does, you know, digital
marketing, that type of stuff for,
for more reduced rate the, you
know, the bigger company does.
Um, and you know, as far as also
like putting budget aside, the
further out you are from it.
The more you can either maximize the
dollars you have, um, because you're
not, you're not fixing problems, right?
squadcaster-f721_1_01-07-2025_092010:
Yeah.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: you're
finding solutions well ahead of time
and then putting that money into play.
And I think that's the
best way to spend it.
Sorry.
I didn't mean to add an extra thing
where I know we're getting out of this.
Um,
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
you can tell us all
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011: going to
LinkedIn, think that's the easiest place
or just type in Jonas Barnes into Google.
I should pop up number one.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011: amazing.
Well, thank you, sir.
It's been a pleasure.
I'm sure we'll be chatting with you again.
Cause this is one of those episodes
that I hope people write in and go,
okay, now I have more questions and
then we'll get you back on for a
follow up or something like that.
Oh,
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
sometime.
That'd be fun.
daren-smith_1_01-07-2025_092011:
there we go.
All right, man.
Thank you so much.
And we will talk later.
jonas-barnes_1_01-07-2025_112011:
Have a good one.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653:
There we go.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
a guest, uh, Darren.
Thanks very much for bringing Jonas on.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Hey,
just thank the LinkedIn algorithm
for connecting us, you know.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Yeah,
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Jonas is a really cool dude.
I hope to be working with him in
the future because He just has,
like he said, that mercenary idea
is actually a really great idea.
You want someone who's as hungry
about getting marketing and getting
awareness for a movie as you are
about getting your movie made and
shot and edited and into theaters.
And so finding someone like that,
whether it's a, it's Jonas himself
or someone like him, like it's so
important to have someone who gets it.
and is just as hungry as you are
to get people to go see your movie.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
yeah.
It's the right mindset to, you
know, right from the beginning to
start thinking about how are we
going to get people to go see this?
Um, and those are some good tips he gave.
what are you working on?
What's
I didn't,
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Uh, yeah,
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653: that
was your counterpoint and that's great.
Yeah.
Um, I'll tell you.
Okay.
So here's some things that
I'm looking forward to.
We, again, I've, uh, had some good
success pitching, um, some of these
projects that I've been developing and
have some promising leads and some,
uh, calls that I'm excited about.
I'm not announcing any projects yet,
uh, because I don't want to be that
guy that announces something and then.
It doesn't happen, but, um,
but the pitching is going well.
I think that the things that we've been
talking about as far as developing and
pitching and putting together a deck and a
good treatment, um, good visuals are all,
are all very helpful in what we're doing.
And so I'm looking forward to
the next couple of weeks one of
these movies greenlit to go into
at least not pre production,
but more like paid development.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653:
yeah, that's amazing.
And I think it's important to highlight
the timeline because we really both
kind of stuck with Started, you know,
early to mid November is where we kind
of transitioned from season one of
distributing two movies in theaters.
Once Carpenter was out in theaters, you
know, at least my role was kind of done.
I went to the premier.
I told people about it.
I took some people to go see it.
And then that was kind of it for me.
So I was already in the process of
kind of pivoting to working on my
film fund and getting money raised.
And then.
And about the same time, like mid
November, you really were like, okay,
now it's the next project time and
I'm going to work on pitches and
I'm going to pitch a lot of things
and start developing some stuff.
I think that's important to highlight
when, when we hit certain milestones,
like it took three months or six months
or whatever it is to give people a
realistic picture of like, we're two
full time, you know, film workers.
And it's not like we can just.
Turn it on in a weekend
and be like, great.
I have my next project line, right?
It takes time and it takes effort and
it takes finding the right people.
So that's cool to hear though.
I'm excited to hear about the projects.
I haven't heard about any of them yet,
so it'll be exciting when you're ready to
share them to kind of get a sneak peek.
Um, And yeah, I've been
focused on fundraising.
It's 100 percent fundraising.
I have a different approach because
I'm not going out with certain projects
in mind and trying to convince people
or sell people on this specific idea
or this specific movie, which is
not something I've ever done before.
It's always been, here's a
movie, here's who's writing,
directing, here's who's involved.
Will you put money into this
movie that already exists?
And they go, yeah, because they
want to invest in that movie.
Whereas this is a different strategy.
Saying I'm going to be a steward of
your money and invest it for you in
the project that I think are worthy.
And that's very different.
And the movies I'm producing are not
mentioned in the pitch or the pitch deck.
They're not present.
I don't have posters or materials
or log lines or anything.
Because that's the pitch.
So very different approach, but
hopefully it gets us to the same,
uh, result, which is making movies.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think our, our paths are kind of,
uh, On their own, they're like kind of
siloed out a little bit and they will
reconvene once got whatever the movie
to develop and you've got the funds
for it and, or, or vice versa, you
know, um, will, you know, I, I think
we'll be talking in season three about
the movie that we're making together.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Yeah.
Well, and hopefully before then,
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Yeah, yeah.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653:
hopefully in the next couple of weeks,
we've got some movement and some,
some, uh, some things progressing.
Well, very exciting.
Uh, I, I thought it would be.
Like I actually reached out to
Jonas a few months ago when we
were in the process of releasing
the movies and he didn't respond.
And so it was funny
that he got back to me.
He's like, Hey, you still
want me on your show?
I was like, yes, that would be amazing.
But I think it works better here
in season two, when we're talking
about the early stages of pitching
and developing and, and putting
packaging a story to become a movie.
It's like your marketing really should
be a consideration at this same moment.
And so I'm really glad that it happened in
season two and not in season one, because
I think it's a better, um, context for
the listener to say, no, we're serious.
Like we're putting it in this season,
in this conversation now, because
you need to be thinking about it.
So if you're out pitching or developing
projects, find a marketer, find a film
marketer who can come and be part of
the team and give you some consulting
and give you some help and give you some
ideas, some feedback, so that you're
not just waiting until the movie's shot.
to start thinking about marketing.
That's not the approach that
we're, we're going to pursue or
that we would recommend anymore.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
I think one of the things that,
that really stood out to me and I
want to emphasize even more is that.
Whatever you release, whatever you're
creating to be able to, you know,
everything about marketing, if it's that
key art, uh, or treatment or whatever,
make it feel like the movie, right?
And if it doesn't, if it's deviating
from the movie that you hope to put
in theaters, then don't release it
as part of your marketing campaign.
Um, these, these pitch decks that I've
been setting around, know, I've created
key art or, uh, You know, visuals that
look like they could be pulled frames
pulled from the movie it's a matter
of AI making sure that everything
You know, uh, reflects what I want.
And so that when I've shown it
to people, they, they want it.
They say, great.
When can I see, like,
when can I watch this?
This is amazing.
This looks incredible.
And they go, good.
Well, it's not made yet.
They say, okay, well,
let me read the script.
Well, there isn't a script yet.
That's what I'm here for.
Like, I need your funding to
help me get to the next level.
Um, but I haven't.
You know, just left it so ambiguous,
like, oh, well, here's this thing.
And now I have to over explain
like, okay, it's not an
animated movie or it's not this.
And it's not a kid's movie, whatever
people know exactly what it is
from looking at what I'm offering.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Yeah.
I mean, it needs to be a one frame
version of your trailer and your
trailer is a two and a half minute
version of your movie and they should
all feel and look and emote the same.
Uh, and so that's, that's
an interesting takeaway.
Um, when he was talking,
I was thinking about this.
Stuff that you did on the carpenter.
Like you came up with a kind of a
teaser poster that is still to date my
favorite version of the movie poster.
Um, no slant against the guys who
made our poster for the theater, but,
but like you, you are exceptionally
good at doing that, creating key art.
But the one you did was so good.
And then the other thing that you did,
and I'm trying to figure out, I was
trying to think about it in the moment.
Like, how would we use that?
But after each week of
filming in Cape town.
You would spend, I don't know,
hours and hours cutting together
a kind of sizzle from the week
of footage that we just shot.
And they would be like sometimes
five or eight minutes long.
So like you were really
putting a lot into it.
You've added music so that
it had the emotion of it.
And I remember watching those and
going like, this is compelling.
This makes me want to watch this movie.
And I wonder, like, how do
you use something like that?
Because it's a piece of content
that you created to help the cast
and crew feel like we're doing
something really awesome here.
But.
Who else could that be for?
Is it just for the producer and the
executive producer to say, Hey, here's
what we're, what we shot this week.
And it's really great.
Or is there a potential for, you know,
sharing that with a limited community
or a paid tier of your Patreon or like
whatever it might be where, I don't
know, something to think about because.
That's, that's easy to do.
It didn't cost anything, but your time and
your talent to be able to generate that.
But man, those were really
compelling, uh, weekly videos.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
well, I think that there's,
yeah, well, thank you.
And, and, uh, I think it goes to back
up what we've already been discussing
about building your audience.
And at that point, the audience
for The Carpenter was the hundred
person crew that was making the film.
And we had to make sure that that
we all understood what this movie
was going to be or is going to be.
And so, I think releasing, uh, uh,
a real, uh, highlights reel of the
week that we just shot was helpful.
I got excited because people
were responding to it.
The audience was responding to it.
there is that risk of saying, Hey, we've
created, uh, you know, this, here's Here's
a week's worth of work that we've created.
And we've summed it up in
three minutes on this reel.
And now releasing it to them who were
in the know and kind of know what it is.
It's like, Hey, before there was nothing.
And now there's something kind of cool.
Or if we were to release that publicly
and say, Hey, here's something.
And the public already has, you
know, hundreds of millions of
dollars of something that they're,
they're comparing this to.
Uh, I don't think it would hold up.
Uh, but you're
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Yeah.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
is an idea of like, Hey,
we're building momentum.
And how do we do that?
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Yeah.
Well, I'm even thinking about it now of
like, as, as these movies are hitting
streaming and, and international and
stuff, is there a way to use that
footage or, you know, like how on IMDb
you'll have trailer one, trailer two
teaser, one teaser two, and then like.
Other videos, like, could it go there
and just be for the super fans that
are going to go find it on IMDB?
Cause it's not on YouTube
and it's not on Facebook.
Like, I don't know.
Um, I, I didn't mean to start a
new topic thread with like the,
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Yeah,
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: the end
of our podcast, but like, I don't know.
Now my, my, uh, motors are running
thinking about how to use that stuff.
Cause it's so compelling.
Like it makes you want to watch the movie,
but anyway, that's for you to figure out.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Or the market or the mercenary.
Let's
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653:
We're the market.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
the, all the footage.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Hey,
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Awesome.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: man.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
Darren, great.
Great episode.
Thanks for checking in and
chatting and I look forward to
chatting with you more next week.
And
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: Thank
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
listeners and,
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: you.
squadcaster-f721_2_01-07-2025_100653:
viewers we're seeing every week
we get more and more viewers and
listeners, I love your comments that
come in, thanks very much for posting
and sharing and, and reaching out.
daren-smith_2_01-07-2025_100653: See ya.
Thank you for listening to this
episode of Truly Independent.
To join us on the journey,
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